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View Poll Results: Are toll roads a failure in Colorado?
Yes 18 56.25%
No 14 43.75%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-26-2016, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Parker, CO
1,083 posts, read 2,740,122 times
Reputation: 1776

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I like the idea of toll lanes. Here's why.

How many times have we widened freeways, only to have slow drivers still gravitate to the left lanes. How many millions of dollars did CO taxpayers spend widening I-25 to 3 lanes between Denver and Longmont, and yet, traffic doesn't move any faster or efficiently than it did with 2 lanes. The reason... too many dumb drivers who still insist at driving at or below the speed limit in the left lane, and a highway patrol that would rather pull over a speeder than pull over drivers who obstruct traffic. What's the point of having so many lanes if everyone is driving the same speed in every lane? Don't even get me started, as this is my pet peeve x 100. Ok, I'll save that for another thread

At least with toll lanes, those who actually care about getting somewhere can do so, while those who are too confused, high, or otherwise impaired to drive at a reasonable highway speed, can do so in the far right lanes and get out of the way of the rest of us.
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Old 01-26-2016, 07:53 PM
 
459 posts, read 674,939 times
Reputation: 726
Quote:
Originally Posted by alloo66 View Post
This all comes down to how we want to fund infrastructure. Since no one wants to increase taxes to pay for roads we have to resort to privately funded roads that cost more and are built fast. Colorado isnt the only state with toll roads. Tax cuts come with cuts in infrastructure, education...etc. If you want to see crazy building and investment go to China, Dubai and other countries that invest in the middle class and a great standard of living for all of us. The baby boomers have ruined the US.
China uses toll roads on most trunk expressways to help pay for them. Dubai uses toll roads to manage congestion. CDOT uses toll lanes to help pay for them and manage congestion. If those are places investing properly in the middle class it seems like CDOT already learned a thing or two from those places.
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Old 01-26-2016, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Washington Park, Denver
6,947 posts, read 6,558,057 times
Reputation: 7437
Quote:
Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
They've been saying that more general purpose lanes wouldn't help, not managed lanes- there's a big difference between a tolled land and a free lane in terms of managing traffic.
That's a fair point, but I guess when you look at the positive impact the tolled lane has had on the traffic for ALL lanes, it is clear that more lanes are alleviating the traffic. I don't know enough about traffic engineering to say whether or not this impact would be felt whether or not it was a tolled lane or not, but on the face of it, it seems that way to me.
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Old 01-27-2016, 06:11 AM
 
1,571 posts, read 2,835,773 times
Reputation: 2013
The real failure of CDOT is all their attention to faux traffic-relieving projects like the I-70 Express lane takes resources away from their primary goal which is keeping the highways safe and usable.

Pot holes and road ruts, poor snow clean-up and areas where the lines between lanes are worn away on I-70 are way too common.
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Washington Park, Denver
6,947 posts, read 6,558,057 times
Reputation: 7437
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK123 View Post
The real failure of CDOT is all their attention to faux traffic-relieving projects like the I-70 Express lane takes resources away from their primary goal which is keeping the highways safe and usable.

Pot holes and road ruts, poor snow clean-up and areas where the lines between lanes are worn away on I-70 are way too common.
While I agree that they should be maintaining roads, the I-70 project is hardly "faux". It has already been proven that it is relieving congestion. Further, it is being managed by a completely different part of CDOT than the one who takes care of the things you have mentioned above.

Read about the High-Performance Transportation Enterprise:
https://www.codot.gov/programs/high-...-hpte/about-us
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:35 AM
 
138 posts, read 129,019 times
Reputation: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyDog77 View Post
That's a fair point, but I guess when you look at the positive impact the tolled lane has had on the traffic for ALL lanes, it is clear that more lanes are alleviating the traffic. I don't know enough about traffic engineering to say whether or not this impact would be felt whether or not it was a tolled lane or not, but on the face of it, it seems that way to me.
The theory of additional free lanes not improving congestion is counter-intuitive but it's very well regarded nationally and internationally and is a primary example of induced demand in economics. There's been a lot of data analyzed and studies conducted to support it.

Going from two lanes to three will always have an improvement initially. What happens afterward is the problem; the number of drivers tend to increase to meet the road capacity. This isn't instant, but happens reasonably fast in comparison to how long it takes to add lanes to a particular road.
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Old 01-27-2016, 07:58 AM
 
930 posts, read 537,775 times
Reputation: 1035
Quote:
Originally Posted by davebarnes View Post
E-470 is privately owned.
CDOT has zero influence over it for the next billion years.
That seems kind of silly to me. Privatizing entire roads that serve as a major artery to the metro area?
Since when did the government get out of the business of providing basic infrastructure with tax funds?

Are there are least contractual obligations that ensure that price gouging does not take place?

I am not against privatization of basic services for those who want to pay a premium for convenience. However, I do believe that affordable, public options need to be available for services such as education, infrastructure, health care, and security. The fact that there is no public, affordable option to rapidly commute along the eastern metro area is a little ridiculous IMO. Also, why do my taxes keep going up every year when the government is supposedly cutting services like this to save money? Heck, if you're going to charge pay-for-use tolls in order to save money on basic services, I want to see some of that savings come back from my tax contributions. That said, I'm also not opposed to paying for public, affordable services either.
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Old 01-27-2016, 08:08 AM
 
Location: The Springs
1,770 posts, read 2,138,987 times
Reputation: 1850
E-470 is a quasi-governmental highway "authority" similar to a "special district". The issue with toll roads, such as E-470 and its cousins, is that the toll is supposedly enacted to pay for the highway's initial construction. However, tolls remain in place long after the debt has been satisfied. Just look at the northeast where they've had toll roads for 60+ years.

The local exception is Hwy 36, which used to be the Denver-Boulder turnpike. It was a toll road when opened but was changed to "freeway" status after the debt was satisfied. I think one of the few examples in the country.

I don't anticipate the current toll roads around Metro Denver to revert.
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Old 01-27-2016, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Washington Park, Denver
6,947 posts, read 6,558,057 times
Reputation: 7437
Quote:
Originally Posted by poppunk View Post
The theory of additional free lanes not improving congestion is counter-intuitive but it's very well regarded nationally and internationally and is a primary example of induced demand in economics. There's been a lot of data analyzed and studies conducted to support it.

Going from two lanes to three will always have an improvement initially. What happens afterward is the problem; the number of drivers tend to increase to meet the road capacity. This isn't instant, but happens reasonably fast in comparison to how long it takes to add lanes to a particular road.
Interesting. Does the same phenomenon occur with the addition of a tolled lane?
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Old 01-27-2016, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
2,696 posts, read 2,349,321 times
Reputation: 2714
What CDOT needs to do is break the contract on E-470 and Northwest Pkwy, and turn it back to the people. How much would taxes be if it's converted to a public road?
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