DC to Denver - getting away from the "trendiness" (school, salary)

[Moonwalkr]

Originally Posted by lurkerkelly

Hi. I am a lurker who saw this post and felt compelled to respond. I was born and raised in the DC area and am currently raising a daughter here in Denver. I don't think Denver is necessarily a better place to raise kids, it is just different. From a family perspective, schools are important and Fairfax county VA and Montgomery county MD are two of the best school districts in the country. Take a look at those Newsweek/US News World Report high school rankings and compare them to Colorado. Second, there is a lot of outdoors activities in the area that lots of Washingtonians do - Great Falls, C&O canal, Chesapeake Bay, Rock Creek Park, Harper's Ferry, Eastern Shore, etc. On top of that almost every museum in the city is free. We didn't have a lot of money growing up, and almost every Sunday my family would drive us kids downtown, park for free, and see a different museum. I'm not sure what the Denver Zoo charges, but the Washington Zoo was big and always free. Finally, since almost everyone in the area seems to work for/with the government in some capacity, there is a lot of job stability for families. So actually think it is quite a good place to raise a family if you can afford it.

I mostly agree, with some of the other assessments about DC being a fast-paced, competitive, aggressive, career-focused place. One of my friends is annoyed that people race him to the escalator when coming off the Metro. In my current job, I work with a lot of pushy North Easterners. I often tell/remind them I'm originally from Washington - so don't try to push me around because I'm as pushy as you. As President Kennedy famously said, DC is a town known for southern efficiency and northern hospitality.

I think the trendiness is comparable to any big city like New York, Philadelphia or Boston. I was back several years ago during winter visiting a friend. Naturally, it was cold so I put on my gore-tex jacket to go out and my friend kind of laughed at me like I was cow-town yokel or going on a hike. I was a little slow that the fashionable thing was to wear a black leather or wool jacket when walking down city streets. It's probably the same thing in New York unless you're trying to look like an outdoorsy person. In Colorado, we just think, it's sunny, it's cold, it's windy - put on your jacket. You don't look out of place in Denver.

As mentioned, the DC area is outrageously expensive, but they also have some of the higher salaries in the country. Colorado is definitely more affordable and that's fantastic for a young family that can't afford a place in DC.

I do think Colorado is a great place to raise a family, and that's why I choose to raise my daughter here. Although I also think the DC area is a great place to raise a family and has excellent schools, I think the quality of life is better in Colorado. The sunshine, outdoor activities, jobs, and kind people make it a great place. It is more laid back than DC or the Northeast. That in no way means we aren't focused on our careers or can be pushed around. We just try to have a good work-life balance. The abundant sunshine and proximity to outdoors activities helps push you to do that.

Unfortunately there are many parts where Metro don't reach, so we commuted on 495 and 295. Just like the weather in Colorado, the traffic is unpredictable in DC. Even if there aren't any accidents you can get unlucky and stuck for a couple hours, not often but you can count on it happening when you really need to be somewhere. This is as of early 2000's, not sure how it was when you were there or now. When we had our child, this was a big factor as we weren't going to subject ourselves to irregular traffic patterns. At least in CO after work we still get to play with the kids, have dinner, go for a walk, etc.

I also don't think salary increase has kept pace with the spiraling real estate values, and you are seeing a lot of young professionals having to commute even longer in DC despite making good money, just to keep a house.

[steveindenver]

Regarding the laid back bit -- I do quite a bit of work in Reston VA, not D.C. proper of course but there is in my opinion a marked difference in attitudes between Denver and the D.C. metro area.

Denver is slower and a bit more laid back. I hope you all enjoy the change and welcome to Colorado.

[LARicky]

"what do you do and how can you help my career?" This perfectly describes people in DC. I was born there and lived there my whole life until last year, they are mostly career obsessed and kind of humorless, it gets to be depressing. We live in LA now and find much less of this in the west and more of a balanced approach to life. Instead of "what do you do?" we get much more of "what did you do this weekend?" usually followed by a great place we should visit. Can't say about Denver, but it's my sense that most of the west is more interested in having a balanced life than the east. To everyone thinking of leaving DC, I'd say go for it if you have a new job. You'll miss your friends but DC will seem really boring and self important once you've left.

[tfox]

I don't think the differences here between Denver and D.C. are as dramatic as you might think. After all, Denver is also a fairly sizable American city -- and it's not THAT different.

That said, I think the main difference is that Denver is mainly populated by people who WANT to live here (for a variety of reasons but mountains, winter sports, summer sports, etc have a lot to do with it). Most of us make some small sacrifices to live here (though not nearly as much as we'd have to make virtually anywhere else in the mountain west) Even so, it would be much better for my career if I'd pack up and move to the SF bay area (although I would probably end up living in a 1br apt there!). Yes, I might have to live poor for a while, but career advancement would be SO much better in the bay area. Still, I think I'd end up viewing life in Silicon Valley as "putting in my time" to advance my career as quickly as possible while plotting my ultimate escape.

I don't think you can reasonably claim that you live in Denver because of COL issues either. Yes, we're cheaper than D.C. or SF bay, but we're expensive compared to Houston, Texas. So, you'd probably be better off in Houston if you're mostly looking for favorable salary to cost-of-living ratios.

I could be wrong, but D.C. area strikes me as more like Silicon Valley than Denver. I'm struck with the idea that people live around D.C. in large part to move their careers ahead. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's somewhat different attitude than Denver, where most make the decision to live here based on a balance between career advancement potential and outside-of-work passions, and ultimately knowing that small sacrifices must be made on the former to enjoy the latter.

[Katiana]

I am including a previous post of mine at the bottom of this post, as lots of time people just jump in and don't go back and read the previous posts. As is obvious, I agree with tfox. It's just not *that* different. steveindenver says "a bit more laid back", which I would agree with also. But it's a matter of degree. There are Type A people here. I work with a group of physicians, believe me, I know "Type A".

A lot of non-natives did come here because they wanted to be here, not just b/c of a job transfer (though you see some of that in some posts). We came here b/c DH really wanted to live here for the skiing, camping, etc. His family had vacationed here for years. However, most of us would not stay here if we weren't making decent money in jobs that we liked.

One thing I def agree with is that style of dress is way more casual here. My friends from back east also notice that.

I have long advised people NOT to come here to get away from something. It will probably follow you.

Originally Posted by Katiana

You probably will not leave the rat race if you move to CO. Most full time workers here are as concerned about career advancement as anywhere else.

This whole idea of "laid back Colorado" reminds me of stuff my kids have told me about going to college out of state. People think they ski to school, heat their homes with wood, go hunting for their meat, etc. We live pretty much like everyone else when it gets right down to it. And I do know plenty of outdoorsy types in the DC area. Maybe you just haven't met the right people. Not to discourage you from coming here, of course, but I don't think it will match your expectations. I think it will be very different.

[Spincycle]

Originally Posted by tfox

I'm struck with the idea that people live around D.C. in large part to move their careers ahead. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's somewhat different attitude than Denver, where most make the decision to live here based on a balance between career advancement potential and outside-of-work passions, and ultimately knowing that small sacrifices must be made on the former to enjoy the latter.

I disagree a bit with your remark on metro D.C. but feel that the comparison would be 100% valid if you said metro NYC/NJ instead of D.C.

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by tfox

I don't think the differences here between Denver and D.C. are as dramatic as you might think. After all, Denver is also a fairly sizable American city -- and it's not THAT different.

That said, I think the main difference is that Denver is mainly populated by people who WANT to live here (for a variety of reasons but mountains, winter sports, summer sports, etc have a lot to do with it). Most of us make some small sacrifices to live here (though not nearly as much as we'd have to make virtually anywhere else in the mountain west) Even so, it would be much better for my career if I'd pack up and move to the SF bay area (although I would probably end up living in a 1br apt there!). Yes, I might have to live poor for a while, but career advancement would be SO much better in the bay area. Still, I think I'd end up viewing life in Silicon Valley as "putting in my time" to advance my career as quickly as possible while plotting my ultimate escape.

I don't think you can reasonably claim that you live in Denver because of COL issues either. Yes, we're cheaper than D.C. or SF bay, but we're expensive compared to Houston, Texas. So, you'd probably be better off in Houston if you're mostly looking for favorable salary to cost-of-living ratios.

I could be wrong, but D.C. area strikes me as more like Silicon Valley than Denver. I'm struck with the idea that people live around D.C. in large part to move their careers ahead. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's somewhat different attitude than Denver, where most make the decision to live here based on a balance between career advancement potential and outside-of-work passions, and ultimately knowing that small sacrifices must be made on the former to enjoy the latter.

This is an excellent post, tfox. A well deserved trio of rep points. I'm going through on-campus recruiting right now, so I'm starting to see first hand what you're talking about with living in Denver being a trade off compared to the mega-cities. I've talked to a number of my peers who think that I'm stupid/crazy/ hurting my career by starting off in Denver instead of big, bad LA. Or maybe they're just jealous? In fact, there's people here who even LA isn't a good enough city for them and want to move to New York City after they graduate. And to think that until recently I was even considering Albuquerque (it's still one of my favorite cities, but I put it on the back burner for now-- for now I definitely want to come back to Denver). Albuquerque.... or New York City? It's pretty obvious that even when it comes to talk, people have different things that make them tick. I think Denver, and cities of that size (2-4 million, plus or minus) offer a pretty good balance between career and ease of living. No matter what city is currently the hot city, there's always a place somewhere in the world (increasingly in China) that has an even better economy, and on the other end of the spectrum there's always a place that's even cheaper yet.

[nelumbo]

I grew up inside the beltway, and moved to Colorado for a job. I think a degree of the tendency for people in DC to ask "So what do you do" when they meet a new person is because a lot of people there have really interesting jobs that they care about, not that they are only asking to see if they can make some self-promoting new connection. There are plenty of people who live in the DC area who aren't career-driven, as well.

I find Denver to be a lot more....limiting than DC, in terms of options (activities, travel, cuisine, availability of goods, etc). I am not interested in outdoor or mountain sports, and finding outlets for the things that I do like has been challenging here.

[2bindenver]

I was born in DC and raised in Montgomery County - mostly Potomac, a little Rockville, very little Gaithersburg (now North Potomac.) I go back once a year for crabs and family.

I find there is a slower pace, to life and a diconnection here from the politicing. I find it refreshing.

Overall, I think people here have different priorities, different focus. It's not how smart you are or who you know or how many times you've invited to the white house...

[tfox]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

I've talked to a number of my peers who think that I'm stupid/crazy/ hurting my career by starting off in Denver instead of big, bad LA. Or maybe they're just jealous?

Thanks, vegas. Ultimately, I think life is much about a balancing act between personal and professional goals. Obviously, I've made a choice to be here in Colorado rather than SF (or somewhere else) for a reason.

That said, looking back on things, there was a time early in my career where I very seriously considered taking a position in SF, even though I'm not wild about the place. The salary at the time was a huge boost (enough to offset the cost of living at my then-current lifestyle). I told myself that it would only be for a year or two, and then it would be quick back to Colorado. I eventually found something locally, but looking back on it, that would have been the right time to do a stint in SF bay. In my present state of affairs, I don't think it would work for me to move there no matter what kind of salary I could make there (then again, I never say never about anything.)

So, my advice to you is that if you are thinking about working in L.A. for a couple years before escaping, NOW is probably the best time. If you're smart you'll maintain your current grad-school lifestyle with its beater car and roommates, work really hard and long hours, and save. Put your hobbies on hold temporarily as you get established. Then, bail after you put in your time and leave SoCal behind forever. You'll probably be ahead in both your checkbook balance as well as your career responsibilities compared to where you'd be if you had moved to Denver right away.

That said, it may not be worth the price as far as your concerned. But my point is that the value to staying in L.A. is probably never better than it is right now, and in my book you can look at 2 years doing just about ANYTHING as a very valuable experience. Once you've made the move to Denver, I doubt you'll ever go back to L.A., anyway.