Has anyone relocated or thought of relocating due to COL/traffic/overall crowdedness? (hotels, neighborhoods)
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People who complain about Denver traffic have never commuted in NOVA.
I did. Thirty years. Left asap in 2005. Won't go back.
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For me, I wouldn't mind moving mainly because I want to be somewhere greener and wetter and smaller or at least less congested. I don't like that the front range always feels like it's in a drought. Also I spend too much time at home or outdoors vs out and about to justify buying what you get here. I don't use the amenities enough. I'm looking at the same areas Count David is, basically the swath between St. Louis and Cleveland, because I think they have a climate I'd like, they are next to hills and forest, and seem to be pretty solid cities bang for buck, though they do have rust belt problems. Every other area of the country I've pretty much eliminated for one reason or another.
I definitely liked Cleveland and eastern OH when I visited. I'm assuming I'd like the rest of OH and probably Indy. St. Louis I don't know. I hear so much conflicting stuff. Basically it sounds like there's a good, dense part of the city that's cool and there's tons of amenities, but the ghettos are large and the suburb / exurbs are kind of keep to my friends only. IDK. I have to visit.
You do. Don't get me wrong, while we concluded our trip great feelings and satisfaction, there were many things that were culturally different, and even off-putting.
I'm sure this will ruffle some feathers (and I've seen similar things in most every other part of the Midwest, but please keep in mind I have spent 99% of my life in the West, and we don't really have these issues here, but):
DISCLAIMER: These comments may not seem politically correct, but I'm having a hard time explaining it otherwise, and mean no offense to anybody by them.
St. Louis. To me, St. Louis (particularly on the MO side) felt like two cities. It felt like a 1) white city, and a 2) black city. Meaning, the whites seemed united and culturally similar, and the blacks were there to service them, and had their parts of town (I know this sounds horrible (), but this was my impression of the situation). I didn't feel like there was any meaningful mingling of the two, and it's strange if you've never seen/experienced it. The divide is very clear and apparent. I didn't feel like the people were any nicer than they were in Denver, in fact, they may even be less nice (I've aired my gripes about people here for years). I felt like this was less of the case on the IL side of the STL metro, things seemed slightly more mixed/friendly there (Belleville/Fairview Heights/etc), keep in mind, ESTL is just basically no-go (even though we did ).
Louisville. Kind of the same, but kind of different. One morning, we ate at a restaurant for breakfast, and our server (middle aged white woman) was serving a table of two younger black women. I don't know the backstory, but we witnessed the server talk to these young women with so much contempt that it made my mouth agape. She refused to bring them a to-go box, and also refused to take their bill at the table. Could have been nothing, could have been something, but it's just not something you'd expect to see. The other thing that confused me about Louisville was that I felt like women were undressing me with their eyes way more than usual. After I told my wife that, she told me that some of the men in St. Louis were doing the same to her.
Cincinnati. IMO it surprisingly had some East-Coast style class, and it felt like it was a different part of the country than the other two cities. It gets a bad rap for unfriendly people, but I didn't really feel that was the case at all. Uninterested at worst, but not unfriendly. I didn't detect the same racism-type stuff, even though it was still pretty segregated. There is a lot of white poverty (especially on the KY side) which is something you really don't see here in CO, nor in much of the rest of the West.
We also spent some time in Nashville (kind of seemed cold to me), and rural southern TN. Rural southern TN fit the stereotypes pretty much to a T, the religiosity was strong down there; the public school graduation we attended...let's just say we had to stop to pray every five minutes.....I just took that time to be shell shocked by it instead.
People in Springfield, the rural IL area east of St. Louis, around the Cairo area, near Paducah, Evansville, and Owensboro (especially) were pretty awesome across the board. There were a few small towns along the way that seemed pretty unfriendly, but there were plenty of others that were friendly to make up for it.
The other thing about this part of the country is LAWNS. It seemed that mowing them was a frequent activity for just about everybody, and in some places, seemed to be the only thing to do.
Over the last several years, we've also been to Chicago, Milwaukee, Detroit, and Toledo, and came away with positives and negatives for each. We still need to cover Indianapolis, Columbus, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh (among others).
I guess my greater point is that, yes, other cheaper parts of the country are different, they may have economic problems, likely worse climates, may or may not have racism/segregation problems on an entirely different level, not have jobs (or as good, many, or well-paying), and the appeal of many of these areas may simply be that they are cheap. And that is okay. And for some of us, that may be enough. And some of them do have comparable amenities, or at least enough of them to justify the prices you would be paying to live, at least so it seems.
What sucks for us personally is that it just now (after 11 years in Denver) seems like our life (particularly socially) is coming together. If that maintains, it will be hard to continue to think of leaving.
The other thing that confused me about Louisville was that I felt like women were undressing me with their eyes way more than usual. After I told my wife that, she told me that some of the men in St. Louis were doing the same to her.
Thanks so much for the reply David! Glad you took time to share.
That's what I've heard about St. Louis from numerous other sources... It should be a great city: it's got a pretty good location, covers a wide geographic area, has tons of history and architecture, has a decent corporate presence, but feels socially divided, politically, racially, and administratively. I don't know that any of these will be resolved soon, and I think it would bother me to live in a place like that. It could come back and grow fast again, but it could just tread water indefinitely like Memphis.
That's interesting how the IL side seemed more connected and fun to be around. From what I can gather, the river towns by ESTL went into a tailspin way back in the great depression and have never recovered. The other towns have moved along, connected to St. Louis for services, but are independent. I just wish there were more people in the pretty spots down south than the central flat part of the state.
Nashville and TN seem way to churchy and social event focused for my tastes. Likewise Louisville looks like it'd be fun for some, but I don't know if shows, baseball, horses, and bourbon are my thing. It seems like any southern state just has southern issues... The geography looks really pretty down in the hills though.
That's good to hear about Cincinnati. It seems like it has the charm and history and natural setting advantages of other cities, but has been able to move along and maintain better than it's peers. I like the idea of being in a place where Midwest, South, and East all meet.
I noticed in Eastern OH that once you got into the hills, there were a lot more trailers and poverty (along with nice areas). That's something you don't see further west into farmville Midwest which I think is because 1. there used to be more industry / subsistence farming earlier in US history and 2. It's a nice and pretty enough area people won't just pack up and leave once the economic spigot shuts off. Not many stayed in Nebraska or Eastern CO when there wasn't a source of income for them, but I think people here (and the Ozarks) stick around because the area's so pleasant.
Pittsburgh is interesting. You have to visit cause it's so unique, but I couldn't live in a place with that many hills in the way of everything, even if they are pretty. It's so different from the grid based city we're used to.
The time it takes to form a social circle really deters me from wanting to move around a lot. If I moved, I'd want to stay to develop roots, so I want to do my homework and research first before going on a whim . Also it's got to fit career wise.
Thanks so much for the reply David! Glad you took time to share.
That's what I've heard about St. Louis from numerous other sources... It should be a great city: it's got a pretty good location, covers a wide geographic area, has tons of history and architecture, has a decent corporate presence, but feels socially divided, politically, racially, and administratively. I don't know that any of these will be resolved soon, and I think it would bother me to live in a place like that. It could come back and grow fast again, but it could just tread water indefinitely like Memphis.
That's interesting how the IL side seemed more connected and fun to be around. From what I can gather, the river towns by ESTL went into a tailspin way back in the great depression and have never recovered. The other towns have moved along, connected to St. Louis for services, but are independent. I just wish there were more people in the pretty spots down south than the central flat part of the state.
Nashville and TN seem way to churchy and social event focused for my tastes. Likewise Louisville looks like it'd be fun for some, but I don't know if shows, baseball, horses, and bourbon are my thing. It seems like any southern state just has southern issues... The geography looks really pretty down in the hills though.
That's good to hear about Cincinnati. It seems like it has the charm and history and natural setting advantages of other cities, but has been able to move along and maintain better than it's peers. I like the idea of being in a place where Midwest, South, and East all meet.
I noticed in Eastern OH that once you got into the hills, there were a lot more trailers and poverty (along with nice areas). That's something you don't see further west into farmville Midwest which I think is because 1. there used to be more industry / subsistence farming earlier in US history and 2. It's a nice and pretty enough area people won't just pack up and leave once the economic spigot shuts off. Not many stayed in Nebraska or Eastern CO when there wasn't a source of income for them, but I think people here (and the Ozarks) stick around because the area's so pleasant.
Pittsburgh is interesting. You have to visit cause it's so unique, but I couldn't live in a place with that many hills in the way of everything, even if they are pretty. It's so different from the grid based city we're used to.
The time it takes to form a social circle really deters me from wanting to move around a lot. If I moved, I'd want to stay to develop roots, so I want to do my homework and research first before going on a whim . Also it's got to fit career wise.
Of course. I myself have been thinking about doing something like this off/on for about the last 9 years, and us moving here to CO in the first place was a similar planned jump on a whim (don't know if you know our story, but we moved here from CA with $6K, no jobs, and three kids when we were in our early 20's).
I wanted a "better" social circle here in CO, but it turns out we had a better one back in CA all along (and still do). We've been in pretty deep valleys socially for most of the time we've been here. Putting down roots here was essentially what we have done nonetheless, but this still doesn't feel like "home", but more like a city we're renting on a long lease. We did do homework (and a week-long trip) before we moved here, and I still feel like we checked many of the boxes on that original checklist.
My wife's family is originally from Pittsburgh, but she herself has never been (nor have I). I'll admit that I'm not as curious about it as I think I should be.
Re: Southern issues, to me it seems that the local cultures just accept things as they are. In many ways, I think that is sad, because if a person of one of the marginalized backgrounds lives in that kind of environment for their whole lives, they are missing out on other parts of the country where they could possibly be more successful and free from the restraints the local culture places on them. It's a shame really. And it's a shame that some of these places are so resistant to change, even if they are big metro areas.
For me personally, I really think I can file that stuff away, and do my best to be the positive change I want to see (anywhere for that matter).
Some of these places surprised me at their size, or at least had more amenities than I expected when I looked at their populations. Carbondale, IL is one example, Paducah is another (just saying ).
For ourselves, the career bit is figured out, and we could move some of our operations to the new place.
Anyhow, I guess we can compare notes until one (or both) of us makes the jump.
DISCLAIMER: These comments may not seem politically correct, but I'm having a hard time explaining it otherwise, and mean no offense to anybody by them.
St. Louis. To me, St. Louis (particularly on the MO side) felt like two cities. It felt like a 1) white city, and a 2) black city. Meaning, the whites seemed united and culturally similar, and the blacks were there to service them, and had their parts of town (I know this sounds horrible (), but this was my impression of the situation). I didn't feel like there was any meaningful mingling of the two, and it's strange if you've never seen/experienced it. The divide is very clear and apparent. I didn't feel like the people were any nicer than they were in Denver, in fact, they may even be less nice (I've aired my gripes about people here for years). I felt like this was less of the case on the IL side of the STL metro, things seemed slightly more mixed/friendly there (Belleville/Fairview Heights/etc), keep in mind, ESTL is just basically no-go (even though we did ).
You pretty much have described Detroit as well. Except that the Detroit region has been divided into the city vs. the suburbs. It's gotten a lot better in the last decade though. Yuppies are moving into the urban core and gentrifying it. Lots of companies are moving operations back downtown, including Ford and GM, the major sports teams, and lots of little start ups. Last time I visited a couple months ago, it was absolutely stunning how much it had improved.
Maybe I'm biased, but I honestly think that Detroit, as long as it stays on course, is going to be "the next big thing" over the next 25 years. It has the infrastructure of a major city in place. It's very affordable. It has many important amenities available in the city and around the metro. They've already laid the track for the city's first stretch of light rail. In lieu of the mountains, you have four of the largest and most beautiful fresh water lakes in the country within driving distance. Once they get crime under control in the city over the next decade or so, I predict that the city is going to experience big time growth.
Of course. I myself have been thinking about doing something like this off/on for about the last 9 years, and us moving here to CO in the first place was a similar planned jump on a whim (don't know if you know our story, but we moved here from CA with $6K, no jobs, and three kids when we were in our early 20's).
I wanted a "better" social circle here in CO, but it turns out we had a better one back in CA all along (and still do). We've been in pretty deep valleys socially for most of the time we've been here. Putting down roots here was essentially what we have done nonetheless, but this still doesn't feel like "home", but more like a city we're renting on a long lease. We did do homework (and a week-long trip) before we moved here, and I still feel like we checked many of the boxes on that original checklist.
Same thing - Sometimes you need to leave CA for a while to realize how good you actually have it. CO never felt like home, as much as I wanted it to and eventually just gave up and returned to where I belong
That said, I'm also an East Coaster and pretty type A as well. That can rub people in CO the wrong way.
You pretty much have described Detroit as well. Except that the Detroit region has been divided into the city vs. the suburbs. It's gotten a lot better in the last decade though. Yuppies are moving into the urban core and gentrifying it. Lots of companies are moving operations back downtown, including Ford and GM, the major sports teams, and lots of little start ups. Last time I visited a couple months ago, it was absolutely stunning how much it had improved.
Maybe I'm biased, but I honestly think that Detroit, as long as it stays on course, is going to be "the next big thing" over the next 25 years. It has the infrastructure of a major city in place. It's very affordable. It has many important amenities available in the city and around the metro. They've already laid the track for the city's first stretch of light rail. In lieu of the mountains, you have four of the largest and most beautiful fresh water lakes in the country within driving distance. Once they get crime under control in the city over the next decade or so, I predict that the city is going to experience big time growth.
If there is any city that can shake its brutal past, Detroit is it. I completely agree, and have no doubt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N610DL
Same thing - Sometimes you need to leave CA for a while to realize how good you actually have it. CO never felt like home, as much as I wanted it to and eventually just gave up and returned to where I belong
That said, I'm also an East Coaster and pretty type A as well. That can rub people in CO the wrong way.
Agreed. Every time we go back to CA, we talk about moving back. Then we think about day-to-day living, and it's just not worth it to us. We have no use for traffic.
If there is any city that can shake its brutal past, Detroit is it. I completely agree, and have no doubt.
Agreed. Every time we go back to CA, we talk about moving back. Then we think about day-to-day living, and it's just not worth it to us. We have no use for traffic.
I was actually shocked of how many people had never been to NYC or L.A. that lived in Denver. Some people need to get out more.
What exactly does LA or NYC offer that the other cities do not?
I travel to both places for work all the time (throw in Chicago too). Personally I think you can experience the same, or better, nightlife, food, culture, outdoors, people, etc in the other top 20 metros than those two. There is just a premium charge, and headache, due to crowds and traffic.
It's also all subjective. In my opinion, larger cities just have more of something, and not always better.
If people just want to spend their life mountain biking, camping, etc...I mean, who cares? They can surround themselves with people who are like minded, and in the end just mind their own business. Would you really want people who are going to complain about a big city, IN the big city? I never understood people who put so much emphasis on how large a city is...and act as if those places should be the template for how other cities, and their populations, should be.
If a city exists as is. The people are happy, there is a good quality of life, and everyone is kind of like minded...when someone moves in from somewhere else, and that city doesn't make them happy, who/what is at fault? Does EVERY city need to accommodate EVERY type of person? If this leads to a cities decline, i don't know, just move away and just let those people deal with it.
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), but this was my impression of the situation). I didn't feel like there was any meaningful mingling of the two, and it's strange if you've never seen/experienced it. The divide is very clear and apparent. I didn't feel like the people were any nicer than they were in Denver, in fact, they may even be less nice (I've aired my gripes about people here for years). I felt like this was less of the case on the IL side of the STL metro, things seemed slightly more mixed/friendly there (Belleville/Fairview Heights/etc), keep in mind, ESTL is just basically no-go (even though we did 
After I told my wife that, she told me that some of the men in St. Louis were doing the same to her. 
. Also it's got to fit career wise.
).
