Should Denver build a underground train network? (low income, neighborhoods)

[Schlawiner]

Hello everyone,

Considering the exorbitant population growth of the metro, and the rather unsatisfactory public transportation situation, wouldn't it be a smart move to build an undergrowth system like the New York Metro, that allows the citizens to get around without a car?

Why don't the city politicians see the need to build top notch public transit?

What s your opinion on this?

[Mike from back east]

Politicians see all sorts of needs for a subway system.
Politicians see no way in hell to finance the massive cost.
Truth is, this should've started as soon as WW-II ended.
America is doomed to its automobiles for the most part.

[alloo66]

Building a subway would be more expensive than building a LR Line or Commuter Rail Line. As it is, RTD can't finish enough of the Rails that it has on the books. Complete streets is the way to go.

[davebarnes]

RTD will shut down by 2070.
Autonomous cars will kill it.

[Westerner92]

To be economically feasible, subways require a population density at least that of Capitol Hill. I don't think anyone in Denver wants the whole city to turn into that, even Capitol Hill residents.

In the parts of the light rail system that don't have tight curves, it can operate with almost the same capacity and efficiency of a metro (60-70 mph between stops, 2-5 cars per train, trains every 2-4 minutes) but it doesn't go near many of the most densely populated parts of the city.

As it is, I'd say that until our ride share overlords take over with their autonomous fleets, RTD should focus on full-blown proper bus rapid transit. When done right, with dedicated right-of-way and full signal priority, it'll have the same efficiency as streetcars. Before the car, Denver was built on streetcars, and most of its most desirable neighborhoods were built to be convenient to those lines. Denver has a lot of arterial corridors that could lose a lane to transit with barely any negative impact to car traffic.

[brown_dog_us]

train transit expansion is basically dead in the US. It's prohibitively expensive and ridership is in a free fall all over the country. Seattle has been the beacon of hope, but their ridership numbers are starting to weaken. RTD is about to start meetings to discuss how and where they will cut service to balance their budget. The cuts are big and they will impact ridership even more. In a year we will be talking about how RTD has the highest fare and shrinking service. It's fun to talk about new transit, but it's not happening.

[Phil P]

Originally Posted by brown_dog_us

train transit expansion is basically dead in the US. It's prohibitively expensive and ridership is in a free fall all over the country. Seattle has been the beacon of hope, but their ridership numbers are starting to weaken. RTD is about to start meetings to discuss how and where they will cut service to balance their budget. The cuts are big and they will impact ridership even more. In a year we will be talking about how RTD has the highest fare and shrinking service. It's fun to talk about new transit, but it's not happening.

RTD sucks, because they have the worst fare structure in the nation. It's hardly publicly subsidized at all (while it should be, because of the positive externality of less smog and traffic and parking lots down town), AND normal fare riders subsidize low income / student at the higest rate anywhere in the nation. The train should be about increasing ridership, not helping low income individuals. These 2 things makes it prohibitively expensive, where it just does not make any economic sense for most of the city.

Given that they've screwed up their 2 most recent lines so terribly, I'd hate to see what a subway would look like... Denver does not need a subway.

[brown_dog_us]

The RTD fares cover 16% of the expenses, so they would need to be close to $12 a trip to break even. At $12 nobody would ride, so....

[Westerner92]

Originally Posted by brown_dog_us

The RTD fares cover 16% of the expenses, so they would need to be close to $12 a trip to break even. At $12 nobody would ride, so....

Similarly, no one would drive if highways cost as much as E-470.

Distance between resources is the friction in an economy. The goal of transportation facilities is to reduce that friction. Public subsidy for transportation systems so that users don't have to pay full price at point of usage has a multiplier effect.