The beginning of the end for suburbia? (Denver, Englewood: lofts, credit)

[Noahma]

Originally Posted by wanttomoveeast

I really like your contributions, and it is clear to me that you have the appropriate knowledge and background to make these posts.

When is Fastracks going to be done for the north corridor? I live up in Thornton. I'm dying for a light rail. The bus systems up north are not so good. Sometimes they are great, usually sporadic though.

I belive the finish date is 2015 for both the north / west and north metro lines. I beilve Jazz knows more about what is happening than I do when it comes to Fastracks, I had just read that they were finishing the enviromental impact studys by mid of this year, and finishing station designs and starting construction by mid next year.

[rybert]

Noahma-

Which Architecture firms do you like/repect in the area?

Are they mostly located Downtown? What about the DTC?

[steveco.]

Originally Posted by Noahma

I belive the finish date is 2015 for both the north / west and north metro lines. I beilve Jazz knows more about what is happening than I do when it comes to Fastracks, I had just read that they were finishing the enviromental impact studys by mid of this year, and finishing station designs and starting construction by mid next year.

There was a little article in the rocky yesterday about how the have begun construction of the western line that will go out to golden. They have started around kipling and colfax i believe

[Noahma]

Originally Posted by rybert

Noahma-

Which Architecture firms do you like/repect in the area?

Are they mostly located Downtown? What about the DTC?

I do Residential, and it is a little more difficult to find who did what design for which builder. Golden Design Group has had some good homes, there has been some really good stuff from the design group that works for John Laing Homes, as far as Commercial stuff, I really do not pay much attention to what they are doing.

There are quite a few Commercial design firms throughout Denver, most are very large and have HUGE staffs (like R&L design) The residential designers are ALL over the place, Boulder has a huge handful of the custom designers for the front range, Colorado springs is home to quite a few of the smaller builders that do some custom work, and the production home companies are generally based out of state. The designers for New Town Builders seem to do some very good designs, the homes are all 5 star energy rated, I do not know what the name of the firm is that does their designs however.

[steveindenver]

I don't understand why some people are hell bent on trying to make everyone lower their standards of living.

Urban living is a lower standard of living?

People need a place to live and we as Americans (to the chagrin of many liberal leftists) will not succumb to socialist ideology and live like Europeans live

And as a result we all lose. The arrogance and wastefulness of Americans it seems is without limit.

If they can't afford the gas once they move out there, that is their problem. Don't make it yours.

It becomes everyones problem.

The drive until you qualify mentality is what got us into this mess; and everyone is affected.

So what do you think they're going to do with existing suburbs? Bulldoze them?

There are quite a few well laid out arguments that see many suburbs becoming blighted with decay much as the urban cores did after WWII.

Why on earth would you wish for the demise of any safe, happy place where people live?

Because it is an unsustainable situation.

One big thing that's going to keep people out of the inner city is the schools.

Stapleton. Proof that you can have good schools, walkable amenities and new housing in the urban corridor.

The clients are getting into the "green" design, yes you can design a 6000 sqft house to be more efficient than the cracker box homes built in the 20's that are stuffed into the city like sardines.

Which means very little when you have to get in a car and drive anytime you need anything.

[wanttomoveeast]

hmm, pretty much confirms what I read. I've been loosely following RTD's Fastracks. But by 2015, I'll be long gone (moving out of state). : (

Originally Posted by Noahma

I belive the finish date is 2015 for both the north / west and north metro lines. I beilve Jazz knows more about what is happening than I do when it comes to Fastracks, I had just read that they were finishing the enviromental impact studys by mid of this year, and finishing station designs and starting construction by mid next year.

[Bradburn1]

Originally Posted by steveindenver

Stapleton. Proof that you can have good schools, walkable amenities and new housing in the urban corridor..

Also, Bradburn Village in Westminster, Prospect New Town in Longmont, Holiday neighborhood in Boulder. All are brand new construction, mixed-use, walkable neighborhoods in a suburban setting with excellent schools. I moved to Bradburn from a standard sprawldivision and cut my gas bill from $300 a month to $60 a month, partially because I drive less, and partially because when I do drive things are much closer (2 minutes each way drive to grocery versus 10--several minutes just winding out of the streets in my old neighborhood). Also here access to public transit.

These neighborhoods have all the best parts of urban living (walkability, being close to things) with all the best parts of suburban (good schools, lower density than the city). I live in a single family home on a 4,000 sq foot lot. What I lost by moving here? A 12,000 sq foot resource and time sucking lawn, never seeing my neighbors, and lots more time spent in my car. Believe me, I don't have a lower standard of living here.

[tfox]

I don't think that it's "the beginning of the end of suburbia." What this article is talking about is more the "exurbs" than the suburbs. Towns like Elizabeth, Johnstown, or Dacono are all WAY out there, not close to employment sector of any kind, and consist mostly of people driving logging more than 100 miles in their cars' odometer.

The suburbs are a different story. The housing to the DTC is in Aurora and Greenwood Village, both suburbs. Boulder County and Broomfield are also mostly suburban in character, yet close to employment centers as well. In fact, the RTD fastracks project being built is almost entirely serving areas that are suburban in character and outside of Denver (only the first few stations on each line will be in Denver proper).

Some of the further out suburbs will, no doubt, share the fate of the exurbs, but I think that this shift toward the center will do nothing but benefit most of the traditional Metro Denver suburbs.

[vegaspilgrim]

Once again, mikie, rkb, and tfox are right on the money. What I find interesting about this discussion (and other similar discussions that have occurred on the General US forum) is this whole imagined urban/suburban dichotomy is more about ideology than it is about urban geography and demography. With the possible exception of Capitol Hill, not really anywhere in Denver is all *that* "urban." A lot of people incorrectly assume that just because they live in an older neighborhood designated as a "national historic district" or they live within the City and County of Denver, that they are so urban, when in reality most Denver neighborhoods are old suburbs. What passes for "urban" in Denver would be considered a total joke in Brooklyn, NY (let alone Manhattan). Most of your Denver "urbanites" wouldn't even last a week in the real city. Urban neighborhoods in Denver are not necessarily any less vehicle-dependent (whether that's a bus or your own car) than designated "suburban" neighborhoods. There is no reason why suburban areas cannot be retrofitted with more public transportation. In fact, this is exactly what has happened with the construction of the southeast light rail line. Often "urban" has more to do with high priced, impractical boutique stores, coffee places, and imitation Philly cheesesteak joints than anything else. What I've discovered recently, as you could tell by my recent photo tours, is that if you want to find real authenticity of what living in an interesting American city is all about, you got to go to the older suburbs-- areas that are 20, 30, 40, 50+ years old that have had plenty of time to grow, mature, and change, often quite asthetically ugly, but that haven't been overrun with gentrification and the ideology of new urbanism.

And one thing-- I disagree that the eastern suburbs of Denver are necessarily at a disadvantage compared to the western suburbs. One thing that I think WILL change is the lifestyle of people using Denver as strictly a base camp during the week to make money and sleep while they go at their adventures in the mountains every weeekend may be slowing down, regardless of what part of town you live in. With rising transportation costs, in the future, people who want to remain living in or move to Denver will have to reconcile themselves to the fact that they live on the HIGH PLAINS-- not the Rocky Mountains. When you leave the base camp mentality aside, the eastern half of the metro area is no worse than the western half. In fact, I think Aurora in particular, while it has many problems, also has many locational advantages. As the cost of living in the central city skyrockets (due to supply and demand), Aurora will always be there as a more affordable option. And as I've discovered lately, Aurora is actually a lot more interesting than it receives credit for. I predict that as soon as the light rail is extended up I-225, the interchange around I-225 and Iliff is going to become HOT. I've already seen evidence of new-urbanist style condos being constructed in that area. There's no reason that density won't continue to increase in parts of Aurora in the future. But shhhh... don't tell anybody else about this. Let them think it's all going to hell.

[Mikieo415]

My oh my, where do I begin? How do I begin? Steveindenver, your post has no substance whatsoever. Platitude after platitude you have written jumping from one talking point to the next giving no real answers... At least answers that can't be backed up, not by facts nor at least compelling arguments. I'm going to give a rebuttal to each shibboleth one at a time.

Originally Posted by steveindenver

I don't understand why some people are hell bent on trying to make everyone lower their standards of living.
Urban living is a lower standard of living?

You have misquoted me. I didn't say urban living is a lower standard, but I did say that European style government high rises are... as an example. Many people chose to live in the city and that is fine. If it makes them happy, by all means go for it. Not everybody wants to or should have to live in the city. To some people life in a high rise nicer condo or loft apartment would be hell. Some people want yards (albeit small in Denver area, but still a yard). Some people want a house for themselves to live in with their kids and pets. A house lets them have all their stuff too. I don't think you want people to have stuff, because you wrote the following:

The arrogance and wastefulness of Americans it seems is without limit.

To whom are you making this comparison? Africa? India? Would you rather we live in the third world? Perhaps then we can be "greener" and use less and our attitudes can be knocked down a few pegs. You obviously are either jealous or bitter in nature. I am tired of freedom hating people like you who want to see people downgrade their lifestyles to fit into their agenda. If someone wants drive 45 minutes to work or have a house with an indoor pool or have 6,000 square feet that is their God-given right.

If they can't afford the gas once they move out there, that is their problem. Don't make it yours.
It becomes everyones problem. The drive until you qualify mentality is what got us into this mess; and everyone is affected.

What is the mess? That is subjective. I don't see Denver metro in a mess. Denver is not experiencing "white flight" into the suburbs like many places across the country. It is seeing an influx of people from elsewhere that is not happening everywhere else. I see towns and cities growing at phenomenal rates. I see people moving to this area for a better quality of life. I see things differently than you. Growth is not a bad thing.

I certainly hope you weren't talking about "global warming", that hoax is a topic for another thread altogether.

There are quite a few well laid out arguments that see many suburbs becoming blighted with decay much as the urban cores did after WWII.

They are arguments as of yet because that trend is not happening on a large scale. The only close comparison would be Green Valley Ranch. I have been through there and it is far from blighted and decaying.

Why on earth would you wish for the demise of any safe, happy place where people live?
Because it is an unsustainable situation.

Another platitude. You want these areas to fall apart because you have some hang-up with people who don't live in the city. NOT EVERYBODY WORKS IN THE CITY ANYWAY!!!

Stapleton. Proof that you can have good schools, walkable amenities and new housing in the urban corridor.

Ummm... wasn't their an airport there a few years ago? Or did that whole area just pop up out of nowhere?

Which means very little when you have to get in a car and drive anytime you need anything.

Unanswerable platitude.


Vegaspilgrim said it best.

With the possible exception of Capitol Hill, not really anywhere in Denver is all *that* "urban." A lot of people incorrectly assume that just because they live in an older neighborhood designated as a "national historic district" or they live within the City and County of Denver, that they are so urban, when in reality most Denver neighborhoods are old suburbs. What passes for "urban" in Denver would be considered a total joke in Brooklyn, NY (let alone Manhattan)...
Often "urban" has more to do with high priced, impractical boutique stores, coffee places, and imitation Philly cheesesteak joints than anything else.

Urban neighborhoods in Denver are not necessarily any less vehicle-dependent (whether that's a bus or your own car) than designated "suburban" neighborhoods.

I couldn't have said it better myself!