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Just to add some historical information about 5-points.
"Five Points is the name given to the neighborhoods surrounding the intersection of Washington Street, 27th Street, 26th Avenue and Welton Street, northeast of Downtown Denver. The collision between the downtown diagonal grid and the rectangular grid of East Denver neighborhoods causes this intersection to be five-way, hence the name. One of the city's oldest neighborhoods, the area came to prominence in the 1860s. The Curtis Park and Ballpark neighborhoods are located within the larger Five Points neighborhood, one of the largest neighborhoods in Denver."
"Five points for some is considered the "Harlem of the West" for its long jazz history. It was the first predominantly African-American neighborhood in Denver. In the '30s, '40s and '50s, it was home to over fifty bars and clubs, where some of the greatest jazz musicians ever, such as Billie Holiday, Duke Ellington, Miles Davis and others played.
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"The construction of light rail into the neighborhood by Denver's Regional Transportation District, and the area's proximity to downtown has led to rapid gentrification of the neighborhood, with historic Victorian homes undergoing restoration and expensive loft construction. This has led many to lament the disappearance of Five Points unique culture and contribution to the city. Many of the long-term residents of the neighborhood have left due to rising rents, most re-settling in suburban areas like Aurora."
You can cut & paste articles from Wikipedia all you want. I get it that it was important at one time but there are no more jazz clubs up there now are there? It WAS home to 50 bars but now it isn't home to any. All they have is Cervantes where in March 2007, 3 out-of-state college students were shot while waiting for the train, even after they gave up their money. And if all the African Americans are moving out of the area to Aurora and NE Denver, and they don't seem too concerned about preserving the area's history then why do you care about it so much, it's their culture not yours?
I still can't believe you compared Five Points to the Eiffel Tower, that's a stretch and a half. That's like comparing rotten apples to diamonds.
You can cut & paste articles from Wikipedia all you want. I get it that it was important at one time but there are no more jazz clubs up there now are there? It WAS home to 50 bars but now it isn't home to any. All they have is Cervantes where in March 2007, 3 out-of-state college students were shot while waiting for the train, even after they gave up their money. And if all the African Americans are moving out of the area to Aurora and NE Denver, and they don't seem too concerned about preserving the area's history then why do you care about it so much, it's their culture not yours?
I still can't believe you compared Five Points to the Eiffel Tower, that's a stretch and a half. That's like comparing rotten apples to diamonds.
who do you mean by theirs? Coloradoans? I am a native of Colorado, It is important to ALL Americans as well as ALL Coloradoans. I am an Architectural Designer, if you had not noticed, Architecture runs in my veins, and it makes me very sad to see something of Architectural historical significance ripped out because some ignorant person does not understand that history is what makes us who we are, and shapes what we will do.
why should I not compare it to the Eiffel tower? What significance does the tower have that makes it something that should be kept over a grouping of houses and an area of town designed and built by some of the most recognized people in western history? What makes it more significant than an area of the United states where Minority groups flourished beyond what they could in other areas, in a place in time where racial tensions were at an all time high? What makes that tower, a structure that provides no use except tourism?
this is a "rotten apple" in your view? I view it as something much more significant. A surviving example of a Second Empire Victorian house, one of only a handfull that survive in the WORLD, Made popular during the 1880's.
I think he is. In other posts of his he talks about Denver being void of anything of historical significance, and then in this post he says we should rip out one of the most historically significant areas of Denver.
Jacob, I think if you opened your eyes and did some historical research on Denver, you would find that it has a VERY rich past.
I'm not angry at all I'm just tired of people in Denver always touting how fabulous the city is. I've been here 4 years and haven't been too impressed with Denver.
For many people, Denver is their ONLY exposure to a big city and they constantly pat themselves on the back for having some old neighborhoods. Most of Denver's transplants come from TX and CA, where urban sprawl is the name of the game. The rest are from small towns in places like IA, KS, NE, NM, WY who also have never been exposed to older densely populated urban neighborhoods before.
WI, MN, MI often get lumped in with those other states but the Upper Midwest/Great Lakes Region has more in common with Rust Belt states like PA, OH, NY in terms of culture and appearance. Shorewood just North of Milwaukee's East Side, near UWM, puts a neighborhood like Cheesman Park to shame. WI was the birthplace of Frank Lloyd Wright someone I've actually heard of before.
The house Noahma posted as proof of Five Points worth is laughable when you think that some poor schmoe is probably going to pay $400,000 for that. Noahma also shouldn't assume Five Points is important to all Americans, "Harlem of the West" it sure as hell isn't. Back when this place still had Jazz clubs all Denver Police officers were required to belong to the Ku Klux Klan. That is also a part of Colorado's history. Should people start burning crosses again to preserve that part of history too? Of course not, you gotta learn when to let go of the past sometimes and embrace the things that are beautiful but still practical.
As for having a rich past, Denver was founded on prostitution plain and simple. When the silver dried up here and people were moving on further west to places like San Francisco, the only thing they had to lure travelers to Denver was the largest Red Light District in the country. Bravo.
I'm not angry at all I'm just tired of people in Denver always touting how fabulous the city is. I've been here 4 years and haven't been too impressed with Denver.
For many people, Denver is their ONLY exposure to a big city and they constantly pat themselves on the back for having some old neighborhoods. Most of Denver's transplants come from TX and CA, where urban sprawl is the name of the game. The rest are from small towns in places like IA, KS, NE, NM, WY who also have never been exposed to older densely populated urban neighborhoods before.
WI, MN, MI often get lumped in with those other states but the Upper Midwest/Great Lakes Region has more in common with Rust Belt states like PA, OH, NY in terms of culture and appearance. Shorewood just North of Milwaukee's East Side, near UWM, puts a neighborhood like Cheesman Park to shame. WI was the birthplace of Frank Lloyd Wright someone I've actually heard of before.
The house Noahma posted as proof of Five Points worth is laughable when you think that some poor schmoe is probably going to pay $400,000 for that. Noahma also shouldn't assume Five Points is important to all Americans, "Harlem of the West" it sure as hell isn't. Back when this place still had Jazz clubs all Denver Police officers were required to belong to the Ku Klux Klan. That is also a part of Colorado's history. Should people start burning crosses again to preserve that part of history too? Of course not, you gotta learn when to let go of the past sometimes and embrace the things that are beautiful but still practical.
As for having a rich past, Denver was founded on prostitution plain and simple. When the silver dried up here and people were moving on further west to places like San Francisco, the only thing they had to lure travelers to Denver was the largest Red Light District in the country. Bravo.
Wow, so self centered you are.
Because you have only heard of Frank Loyd Wright, does not mean there are not any other significant Architects, some you probably have never heard of but have some impact on your life, like the Greene brothers, or Frank Ghery.
I have been to many large cities, and find them much the same as Denver. They all have their bad areas, and there good areas, the history and the new. True that Denver is not as old as some cities, but that is no excuse to call for the destruction of a quarter of the city becase YOU dont find it charming. The home I posted is not proof of anything except that it is a fading Architectual style not only in Colorado, But in AMERICA, it is one of a few surviving examples of that paticular style of house, You would be hard pressed to find more than a handfull, sure that one may not be a landmark example such as the Gabrel house in California, or Waterfall in Penn. It is none the less an example of American Architecture. As for the "Harlem of the west", This area brought many of the large bigband leaders of the time through, Some made stops only in Denver before heading back east in a time where that kind of travel was not easy. I personally dont care what other cities have in the way of "put denver to shame" Denver is Denver, a unique place amongst the west. If your claim about the KKK and the police is true, it makes 5-points even more significant, in an area where it would be hard for a minority group to flourish, somehow they did.
"embrace the things that are beautiful but still practical"
These homes are very beautifull, you have to look past the grime that is on them now, and embrace the restoration. They are very practical, there are grants from the historical society to restore these homes, and update the interiors for future use. They are in areas of Denver that will be desireable within the future.
If you do not like Colorado or Denver, feel free to leave, you know where I-25 and I-70 are, no one is going to stop you.
ohh, to add to a part earlyer about the age of Denver, Milwaukee is just as old as Denver, based mainly on brewing and heavy industry, Denver founded in nov. 1858, Milwaukee founded in 1846, both made up of several citys within close proximity. Denver was primaraly a Gold mining town of the Gold rush era.
This is my last post on this topic but I just needed to say that once these houses have had their interiors updated and become livable by 21st Century standards, they will no longer be practical because they will then have become unaffordable. Either leave the houses in total disrepair in order to maintain the neighborhood's current population, or renovate them until the current resident's can no longer afford to live there. It doesn't sound like either choice is going to be a good decision for everybody. Why renovate a bunch of historic homes in an historically African American neighborhood, just so a bunch of rich white people can move into them?
P.S. I'm pretty sure damn near everybody has heard of Frank Ghery, he did have a cameo on The Simpsons after all.
P.P.S. Denver demolished Skyline Park a few years back and that was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright.
I am just reading this "dialogue" and while I did not agree with Jjacobeclark's idea of an undesireable neighborhood (I don't live in SE Denver or Five Points), I also don't think telling someone to "leave" is very called for, even if you can't win an argument. Not everyone likes old houses with small rooms and not everyone likes Empire style, etc. It's just a matter of what you like.
And Denver did destroy Skyline park, and some other great landmarks and replaced them with inexplicably ugly icons such as the blue bear, the dancing atrocities outside DCPA (which will never come close to the rainbow fountain that they took down), and the hideous mountain blocking, jutting monstrosities, the Art museum eyesore and the convention center eyesore.
so overall, architecturally I would give Denver a c minus. Let's at least keep the old style buildings because that is the main thing they have going right now. That, and the original art museum and library. But no one mentioned the Black History Museum which I don't think is in Five points but Park Hill? I don't know.
Location: Governor's Park/Capitol Hill, Denver, CO
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Thanks Yodi, I will take more during this coming years Curtis Park home tour. It will be their 35th year of doing home tours.
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