Denver is it really totally spawl? (Colorado Springs, Aurora: townhouse, place to live, moving)

[rybert]

oh... right on. You were looking for a more recent example/proof.

Guess we'll need to dig up the old almanac for this one... (rummages through box of grandfather's belongings) nope... nothing here about Arizona... must have been too far West for my family.

[Katarina Witt]

I was looking for proof that the rainfall has decreased, as the poster stated.

[onthamove]

Originally Posted by Katiana

I have lived in Colorado almost 30 yrs now and I do not agree with jazzlover's post. It is true that newcomers see how it is now and not how it was 50 yrs ago. None of us posting on this board know how it was 100 years ago. The point is, the only constant in life is change. I think growth has been managed fairly well. Yes, there are things that could have been done better, but the past is the past. We have an excellent transit system. The burbs have many of the amenities of the city, with shopping, rec centers, JOBS, and much more. The area is fairly compact. It depends of course, on what you are comparing Colorado to. If you are comparing it to a rust-belt city that is losing population, yes, there is a lot of new housing and it may look a bit raw. But believe me, having problems like school overcrowding is more challenging to deal with, in a good way of challenging, than having to close schools due to population loss, like in Pittsburgh.

The point is, the only constant in life is change.
TOTALLY 110% TRUE

[onthamove]

hasnt this same "sprawl" or "sprawl?" to some made Colorados economy the braggable token it is?

[onthamove]

would you rather see growth or be another erie buffalo or cleveland?

[CareFreeAZ]

Originally Posted by Katiana

From the article:

Shepherd found a 12-14 percent increase in rainfall in the northeast suburbs of Phoenix from the pre-urban (1895-1949) to post-urban (1950-2003) periods. That is an increase, not a decrease, and the comparison period was not just 10-15 yrs ago, it was the last 58 years. I'm not saying climate change is good, mind you, I'm just saying rainfall increased, not decreased.

Sorry Katiana, I don't have printed numbers in front of me, I could find them and I know it would support it, but the actual experience of living here during that time pretty much confirms it. Like your article shows, living in a Far Northeast Suburb like Carefree is far different than Central Phoenix. Carefree=2,500 elevation compared to 1,000 foot Phoenix elevation. More temperature inversion mixes with heat of the day thunderstorm air and cooler natural desert floor creates more localized thunderstorm activity. There are alot more dust storms and non rain producing thunderstorms than there were years ago. It's like how Monument hill and the Foothills area's west of Denver run the chance of getting more snow than Central Denver at certain time. If you look at the yearly rainfall totals by area you will not see increases. The Phoenix Metro area has been in a 10 plus year drought compared to what it used to be.

I should not have diverted from the original topic about Denver sprawl but that article proves the point. It states suburbs, where there is more native sonoran desert and not the Central Core where there is asphalt and concrete and stucco and block. Carefree itself is usually 7-10 degrees cooler than Phoenix. That is why when they give a weather forecast here they will say overnight lows in the 40's and in the 30's in the outlying area's.

[COflower]

One of the reasons you don't see the Colorado Springs Metro area as large as the Denver Metro area is the fact that the economy here relies heavily on the Department of Defense and that includes DOD contractors located here. A less diverse economy will slow the growth a bit.

In addition, given the cities that make up the Denver Metro area, were in a close enough proximity to Denver proper that as the area grew, the cities merged.

City by city and county by county the estimated census figures are (approx. in 2006):

Colorado Springs 372,437

Denver (city) 566,974

El Paso County 587,272

Denver County 588,349

Of course Denver County has size limits smaller (I am pretty sure) in terms of land area, but you also have to take into consideration we do have smaller cities like Manitou Springs, Fountain, Widefield and as time marches on the small cities/towns of Monument, Palmer Lake, Woodmoor (which I don't think is an incorporated town) will be absorbed to be included more into the C Springs Metro area.

Denver has the ability to market itself much better than C Springs. It has an international airport and probably would not be in the best interest for the Front Range to have more than one and taking into consideration the huge presence of military installations here, would not be all that wise to go forward with more international travel. Not that anyone can afford to travel these days!

As for "sprawl". Eh, that's just a term for most people that have moved here from out of state and want to close the doors to newcomers. In truth, for most western states cities, it's been an issue and the wave of people came, and you have to build (even if hindsight is 20/20). The entire Front Range from Pueblo to Ft. Collins really grew (as Jazz said) after WWII and the automobile meant freedom. Also, the opening of US interstates helped fuel that growth in the western cities. People will complain no matter where they live if they continue to think "it's always greener".

I've heard people complain that Denver (and C Springs) don't offer enough "culture" - it's just a different "culture" here. I've heard people complain about the traffic - check out Mike From Back East's posts, he will tell you otherwise. I hear people complain about the suburban nature of the cities here...well, rom the 50s through the mid 90s that is how we lived and energy was cheap (but for the oil embargo) and people wanting large green lawns (in our climate-not smart), 2-4 car garages and still wanted to feel some kind of open space.

Okay, no arguements there as it is kind of silly but 50 years ago, it was a different time and a different mentality. I happen to love it in Colorado and I can either whine about it and change my location or I can see past that and see what a great place this is to live. It's not greener elsewhere given what I desire in my life. I couldn't stand the thought of living in the south (too hot and humid), California is against my economic reality as well as those pesky earthquakes (that scares me), north or north east, too cold and the northwest, too wet. Colorado offers more than sprawl but a lifestyle I enjoy year round.

[onthamove]

thanks for the info COflower!

[steveco.]

Originally Posted by COflower

One of the reasons you don't see the Colorado Springs Metro area as large as the Denver Metro area is the fact that the economy here relies heavily on the Department of Defense and that includes DOD contractors located here. A less diverse economy will slow the growth a bit.

In addition, given the cities that make up the Denver Metro area, were in a close enough proximity to Denver proper that as the area grew, the cities merged.

City by city and county by county the estimated census figures are (approx. in 2006):

Colorado Springs 372,437

Denver (city) 566,974

El Paso County 587,272

Denver County 588,349

Of course Denver County has size limits smaller (I am pretty sure) in terms of land area, but you also have to take into consideration we do have smaller cities like Manitou Springs, Fountain, Widefield and as time marches on the small cities/towns of Monument, Palmer Lake, Woodmoor (which I don't think is an incorporated town) will be absorbed to be included more into the C Springs Metro area.

Denver has the ability to market itself much better than C Springs. It has an international airport and probably would not be in the best interest for the Front Range to have more than one and taking into consideration the huge presence of military installations here, would not be all that wise to go forward with more international travel. Not that anyone can afford to travel these days!

As for "sprawl". Eh, that's just a term for most people that have moved here from out of state and want to close the doors to newcomers. In truth, for most western states cities, it's been an issue and the wave of people came, and you have to build (even if hindsight is 20/20). The entire Front Range from Pueblo to Ft. Collins really grew (as Jazz said) after WWII and the automobile meant freedom. Also, the opening of US interstates helped fuel that growth in the western cities. People will complain no matter where they live if they continue to think "it's always greener".

I've heard people complain that Denver (and C Springs) don't offer enough "culture" - it's just a different "culture" here. I've heard people complain about the traffic - check out Mike From Back East's posts, he will tell you otherwise. I hear people complain about the suburban nature of the cities here...well, rom the 50s through the mid 90s that is how we lived and energy was cheap (but for the oil embargo) and people wanting large green lawns (in our climate-not smart), 2-4 car garages and still wanted to feel some kind of open space.

Okay, no arguements there as it is kind of silly but 50 years ago, it was a different time and a different mentality. I happen to love it in Colorado and I can either whine about it and change my location or I can see past that and see what a great place this is to live. It's not greener elsewhere given what I desire in my life. I couldn't stand the thought of living in the south (too hot and humid), California is against my economic reality as well as those pesky earthquakes (that scares me), north or north east, too cold and the northwest, too wet. Colorado offers more than sprawl but a lifestyle I enjoy year round.

Actually in 2007 El Paso County actually passed Denver County becoming the most populated county in colorado. The only reason is that denver is no longer allowed to annex more land into either the county or city which makes it very difficult to grow population wise.

[denverian]

Originally Posted by Katiana

I have lived in Colorado almost 30 yrs now and I do not agree with jazzlover's post. It is true that newcomers see how it is now and not how it was 50 yrs ago. None of us posting on this board know how it was 100 years ago. The point is, the only constant in life is change. I think growth has been managed fairly well. Yes, there are things that could have been done better, but the past is the past. We have an excellent transit system. The burbs have many of the amenities of the city, with shopping, rec centers, JOBS, and much more. The area is fairly compact. It depends of course, on what you are comparing Colorado to. If you are comparing it to a rust-belt city that is losing population, yes, there is a lot of new housing and it may look a bit raw. But believe me, having problems like school overcrowding is more challenging to deal with, in a good way of challenging, than having to close schools due to population loss, like in Pittsburgh.

I grew up in the Kansas City metro area and sprawl there is much worse than Denver. Comparing the two metro areas, their footprints are nearly the same (take up about the same amount of land) yet the Denver metro area has nearly a million more people. Denver is more compact than many other cities, and with all the infill projects and addition of light rail, it's only getting more compact. I prefer to live in a compact city where I can easily access green space rather than everyone having an acre of grass in their back yard.