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The prices jumped so rapidly that the reason can't be all of a sudden we're running out. I think it is relevant that you haven't been an adult during many of these "crises" that always seem to somehow disappear. The oil companies have cried 'wolf' a lot, and so have the environementalists.
I dunno, your discussion style makes me come offl like a troglodyte b/c I disagree with you, but OTOH, I don't drive an SUV (well, I do drive a mini-SUV, but it gets as good of mielage as a small car), I don't drive tens of miles to work, I drive 4 1/2 mi. and my spouse drives 6, I do most of my shopping, errand running, etc within a five mile radius of my house, the majority of it much closer than that, even. But this "sky if fallilng" attitude drives me CRAZY! (Well, maybe crazier, since I'm already about halfway there, lol.)
Once again, Matt Simmons, leading investment banker to the oil industry:
The prices jumped so rapidly that the reason can't be all of a sudden we're running out. I think it is relevant that you haven't been an adult during many of these "crises" that always seem to somehow disappear. The oil companies have cried 'wolf' a lot, and so have the environementalists.
I dunno, your discussion style makes me come offl like a troglodyte b/c I disagree with you, but OTOH, I don't drive an SUV (well, I do drive a mini-SUV, but it gets as good of mielage as a small car), I don't drive tens of miles to work, I drive 4 1/2 mi. and my spouse drives 6, I do most of my shopping, errand running, etc within a five mile radius of my house, the majority of it much closer than that, even. But this "sky if fallilng" attitude drives me CRAZY! (Well, maybe crazier, since I'm already about halfway there, lol.)
I'm a little (or very, according to whom you ask) abrasive on the topic of design, construction, and energy. It's only because I care dearly about this country and want only the best for it (less is more right?). Of course it's clear that the other side (or simply a different side) is represented on this forum. I do subscribe to the more extreme predictions, and try to use as little as possible; although there must be people out there that think I am a model of waste and excess myself (see Brazil). Anyhow, sorry if my style has baited you into coming-off as a troglodyte... I'm sure you are not.
I have lived in Colorado almost 30 yrs now and I do not agree with jazzlover's post. It is true that newcomers see how it is now and not how it was 50 yrs ago. None of us posting on this board know how it was 100 years ago. The point is, the only constant in life is change. I think growth has been managed fairly well. Yes, there are things that could have been done better, but the past is the past. We have an excellent transit system. The burbs have many of the amenities of the city, with shopping, rec centers, JOBS, and much more. The area is fairly compact. It depends of course, on what you are comparing Colorado to. If you are comparing it to a rust-belt city that is losing population, yes, there is a lot of new housing and it may look a bit raw. But believe me, having problems like school overcrowding is more challenging to deal with, in a good way of challenging, than having to close schools due to population loss, like in Pittsburgh.
we started out with many cities that were in pretty close proximity to each other, when they all started to grow it was inevitable that they grow right into each other creating what we see now.
anyone trying to get a building permit from Boulder to Denver and anywhere in between should see the above bold post pretty clear. They are stringent as all heck, and not willing to just hand out building permits like water
You know, jazzlover, when everyone was "discussing" you on that other thread, I got quite annoyed and was going to respond, but then someone brought the topic back to the OP's question and I let it drop. However, this post is really over the top! The sky is not falling! Do you not think mankind is capable of adapting to changing cirucumstances. Do you really think everyone has to live the way YOU think people should live to prevent the above impending disaster?
No......he just goes and moves to another state, adding to that states population and inevitable sprawl
I’m not a Colorado Native. Maybe if my father (a WWII vet), didn’t relocate all around the world before he retired from the military with his family elsewhere, I would be. Who knows?
But, I do have 2 aunts ( one still living and closing in on her 80's),that lived here in Colorado through 1930’s till they got married and moved elsewhere.
Their adopted grandfather had quit a bit of land and a ranch in Denver Colorado. If he were alive today, he’d be close to 150. He could run circles around his ranch and my aunts when they were little– the altitude didn’t bother him a bit.
I still do well to walk out to my mailbox let alone run!
Anyways…
The stories I’ve heard from my aunt have been wonderful and not a single gloom and doom.
Stories about her walks to school over fences covered in snow, the scenery and smell of wildflowers and trees, views that go on forever, hummingbirds and wildlife all around.
It makes me want to go out and explore, plant gardens and enjoy life.
Last edited by AUNTIEMinCOLORADO; 07-01-2008 at 11:44 PM..
The prices jumped so rapidly that the reason can't be all of a sudden we're running out. I think it is relevant that you haven't been an adult during many of these "crises" that always seem to somehow disappear. The oil companies have cried 'wolf' a lot, and so have the environementalists.
I dunno, your discussion style makes me come offl like a troglodyte b/c I disagree with you, but OTOH, I don't drive an SUV (well, I do drive a mini-SUV, but it gets as good of mielage as a small car), I don't drive tens of miles to work, I drive 4 1/2 mi. and my spouse drives 6, I do most of my shopping, errand running, etc within a five mile radius of my house, the majority of it much closer than that, even. But this "sky if fallilng" attitude drives me CRAZY! (Well, maybe crazier, since I'm already about halfway there, lol.)
Great rebuttal, Katiana! I wish I could give more rep points but I think I've upped you so many times I'm maxed out for a while. You are the most level headed poster on this forum. I've been sitting here for the past day reading a whole lot of bull**** while trying to keep a straight face and shut up. I can't hold it in anymore! I find it interesting how one person's paradise is another person's hell. What jazzlover labels as a "hellhole," "unliveable," and a place being "ruined" is highly, highly subjective. If Denver is some hellhole, it must be one nice hellhole to live in. When I think of hellhole, I think of Baghdad. Or Zimbabwe. Or Beirut. Or ghettoes in the US like the Bronx, NY, Camden, NJ, or Compton, CA. Denver doesn't even have anything that is remotely as bad. Denver's not even growing at the same rate it was in the 1990s; right now it's slow, manageable growth.
Even here in Los Angeles, a place which many people think has been ruined for decades, where there's 17.8 million people in the greater combined statistical area, there are a lot of people, millions I'd say, who love it here and wouldn't want to live anywhere else and have generations of family here. It's actually amazing, as many Californians as there are who are moving out, there are just as many if not more who have no intentions of going anywhere. Yeah, the traffic is bad, the pollution is bad, the place is sprawled out over 120 miles in each direction, earthquakes and fires shake things up every so often, and the cost of living is sick, but life still moves on nonetheless, just like anywhere else. I personally hate it here (okay, there are a lot of aspects about LA that I like, but the dislikes outweigh the likes for me) and can't wait to come back to Denver permanently next May. And btw, I'm coming back no matter what. When I start talking to the recruiters I'm telling them Denver or bust! I think Denver is a great city to live in. I also think labelling a whole city with a giant paint brush as "sprawl," and failing to make distinctions among the many different parts of what comprises a metro area like Denver, is intellectually sloppy.
Anybody who has lived in Colorado for more than 20 years (over a half-century for me) will tell you that sprawl is out of control in the Denver metro area. The amount of land lost to sprawl--particularly in the last 15 years or so, is simply staggering. Newcomers don't get it, because they didn't see what it was then compared to what it is today. As for Colorado Springs, sprawl is as big a problem there as it is in Denver--it's just that the Springs started from a much lower population base when the post-WWII sprawl phenomenon hit. If the rate of Colorado's growth trends--more correctly STUPID growth trends continue--the Front Range will be an unlivable hell-hole in another ten years or so. I don't think that will happen because the whole unsustainable mess is likely to implode on itself before then. I think we are very close to that "tipping point."
Amen Jazzlover, where were you when I worked in City government!
Onthemove, I know a handful from Lexington, and don't worry, they still like Denver/Boulder a lot. Like Jazz says Springs also has substantial sprawl, it's less of a city than Denver also there might have something to do with it being Air Force territory. In 20 years the population is expected to double in Colorado, which is all along the 120 mile stretch of Springs-Denver/Boulder-Fort, its not sustainable, personally I think its lack of imagination from government as well, I'd hate to see 120 miles of cookie cluster home, other than that we have done a pretty good job on preserving open spaces.
Unless the growth is unsustainable... then it's probably a bad thing.
What makes you think the growth is unsustainable? Most of the transplants to CO are educated adults who work and contribute greatly to the local economy by paying taxes. We have not run out of water, despite dire predictions for years. This summer, we don't even have any watering restrictions in Louisville, and our corn is way past kneee-high here closing in on the 4th of July. We also have a 3 ft high tomato plant.
Heck, rybert, you are planning to move here with a wife, as I recall. Pretty soon the little ones will arrive and viola! More Coloradans! The kids will be natives, though, so they will have a "right" to live here, lol!
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 07-02-2008 at 08:40 AM..
Reason: add wife and kids
The US Census Bureau's figures for Domestic Net Migration show that Los Angeles has lost average, annually, 180,025 people from 1990-2000, a -15.3% rate, and 117,780 people on average annually from 2000-2004, a -9.3% rate. These figures are, again, annual net migration.
California has lost 2,208,709 people total from 1990-2000, and 396,156 people from 2000-2004.
Now I post these not to make any sort of argument - they're statistics, and without context or a narrative they don't mean a whole lot.
Of course many, many people love LA. It has a number of strong work sectors, great weather, beach and mountain access, culture, and a "this is the spot" feeling. At the same time, a lot of people have to be there or need to be there, professionally, for personal or family reasons, etc.
But I don't think LA (or anywhere in California, or Phoenix, AZ for that matter) should be something to look to. Look at how much these places have grown in only 50-60 years (15 years for PHX). This pretty much confirms much of what Jazz has posted - that such growth is almost somewhat inevitable, and there isn't anything a city, county, or state can really do about it but accommodate it the best they can. And besides, just think of all of the jobs and tax increases that come with more people moving in...
No, you misunderstand what I'm saying completely. I never said LA or Phoenix is a model to emulate. All I said is that even in supposedly the worst "hellhole" in the USA (according to many people) there are still millions people who live normal, happy lives. Denver is plenty big as it is right now, but even if its population keeps growing that doesn't mean it's going to turn into a hellhole.
Quote:
But anyway, you're certainly not giving Jazz a fair reading. He isn't saying that Denver (or Colorado) is hell. That's a complete strawman. He is saying that the change that has come to the region, considered in sum, has decreased the quality of life, and he has outlined those reasons.
Of course its all a matter of perspective. To someone coming from LA, NY, or wherever Denver (and SLC, Boise, Portland, etc.) has few and rather piddling problems with sprawl, traffic, crime, and cost of living, and it probably seems like paradise (and likewise, someone coming from the poor parts of Mexico, or war-torn Iraq, Africa, Sarajevo, etc., might think LA and NY are places with great opportunities). Those who have seen their homes desecrated by growth will likely never agree.
I know exactly what jazzlover is saying; we two go back a long time on this forum. We engage in a lot of friendly and spirited debates here. He *hates* Denver, Colorado Springs, Boulder... and pretty much any population center in Colorado with more than 50,000 people. Basically he hates where the majority of the population of Colorado lives. He makes no reservations about stating this either. His point of view is basically a rural west-slope point of view (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but that's the camp he's coming from). And I'm not coming from LA, I'm a 3rd generation Denver native who's temporarily going to school in LA this year.
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