Is Denver right for Our Family? (Aguilar: foreclosure, renting, condo)

[PeixeGato]

I currently live in Northern California and love the Bay Area trio of cities (i.e. SF, Berkeley, Oakland). We moved here nearly 5 years ago and have loved every minute of it, however, now that we have kids and our priorities have changed, the reality of what it costs to live here is setting in. When I say the "cost of living here", I am referring to more than just the cost of housing. I am referring to the number of hours I and my wife will have to work in order to live the lifestyle we like. We value time with our family, time and money to vacation, etc. Living in the Bay Area is so expensive, that we just don't see having enough money to do all of that AND save money for our retirement.

That said, we have begun to look elsewhere for places to live and raise our family. We have a 2-year old and will likely have another before we are done. Denver is one city that came up on our radar and I want to hear what other people think. I grew up in the DC area and have lived in the NYC area and Ann Arbor, MI. In order to make it easier to answer my question, I will tell you what we are looking for in a new place:

1. We want to live in a med-sized city (i.e. pop between 200K and 1 million). NYC was too big and Ann Arbor was too small (when you exclude the student population) and spread out. We are not interested in living in the suburbs or in a rural area. As such, I'd prefer NOT to hear from people who have decided that city living is not for them or people who prefer living in the suburbs. As I mentioned, we love SF and Berkeley and if money were no object, we'd be living in one of those places.

2. We like going out to dinner, but hate chain restaurants. We enjoy cultural activities (local theater, music, dance, independent movies, etc). We like to go out to hear live music at night (love blues and jazz). We love going to music festivals and street fairs.

3. We want to live in a place where you can be car-free (or live with 1 car at most). We want to live in a place where people can walk, bike, or take public transport to restaurants and other stores. We want a place that has small independently owned shops. We want to be able to walk to parks with the kids. We would love to be able to sell the car and just join one of those car sharing groups for when we need to do our Target runs to buy TP, paper towels, etc.

4. We love outdoor activities and love being outside. Having a large house is not as important as being able to get outside and enjoy the great outdoors. We are active people and want to raise active kids.

5. Weather is important. I have crossed off places like Chicago and Mnpls because of the frigidly cold winters. While I can handle snow, I am not interested in long periods of below freezing temps. I also do not like the humidity that exists in DC during the summer, so Florida, DC, and Austin, TX are out. The extreme heat of Phoenix is also too much, even though there is no humidity. I like the moderate climate of the Bay Area, but realize that you won't really find that anywhere else.

6. Diversity is important. I am African American and my wife is white. It is important that our family doesn't stick out like a sore thumb and that we feel comfortable and welcomed. This is particularly important for our kids and their school experience. In addition to ethnic diversity, we want diversity in activities, architecture, age demographic (we prefer to be OLDER than the median age, we are in our late thirties), culinary options, etc.

7. We would prefer to put our kids in public school. However, we realize that overall, the quality of education in urban areas tends to be lower than that of suburban areas. Also, if the cost of living is low enough, we may be able to swing private schools, particularly if we can find one that is very diverse. It would also be more palatable if we are living in a city atmosphere where our kids will be able to get their fill of diversity in other ways.

8. Owning a home is VERY important to us. Its something we have always done (until we moved to the Bay Area) and its something we want to do in the place we decide to settle. We tried renting here and while there is nothing inherently wrong with it, we just prefer to live in a house that we own. And yes, we want a house, not a condo. I like to fire up the Grill and Smoker and I need some outdoor space where I can do that. We also like to entertain outdoors.

Well, that's pretty much what we are looking for in our search for a place to live. Based on this, would we be happy in Denver? What other things would we need to consider regarding Denver? Thanks in advance for your feedback.

[David Aguilar]

I'll do my best to answer your questions:

1. Denver proper is at about 600K population, which I don't think matters, simply because the urbanized area around and including Denver sits at about 2 million, so I'm unable to determine whether or not Denver/Denver metro is small enough for you.

Numbers 2, 3, and 4. can be accomplished here in Denver.

As for #3, the places in Denver I'd recommend you aren't near the famed light-rail, but near buses, of course. There are bike paths/lanes to help you get around if that's the way you'd like to go.

Originally Posted by PeixeGato

5. Weather is important. I have crossed off places like Chicago and Mnpls because of the frigidly cold winters. While I can handle snow, I am not interested in long periods of below freezing temps. I also do not like the humidity that exists in DC during the summer, so Florida, DC, and Austin, TX are out. The extreme heat of Phoenix is also too much, even though there is no humidity. I like the moderate climate of the Bay Area, but realize that you won't really find that anywhere else.

Denver can get "frigidly cold", but it is not usually constant. There might be some spells in winter we don't get above freezing, but the cold here is definitely bearable. No/little humidity, check. Extreme heat can occur in summer, with high 90's-low 100s not terribly uncommon, but those don't last for the whole summer, think mid-high 80's most of the time.

Have you looked into Seattle? Considering what you are asking for, Seattle seems about perfect, IMO.

#6 can be found, granted you stay in the eastern parts of Denver.

#7, check.

#8, depends on your price range, which you didn't provide.

No one can tell you if you'd be happy in Denver, the only way to find out is to come try it out. The one thing you didn't mention is work, where and what will that be?

Look in Congress Park, South Park Hill and Hale (Denver neighborhoods), for starters.

[PeixeGato]

Thanks for the feedback David.

In terms of population, I was speaking of the population in the City "proper". There will always be metro areas that increase the population, but its easier for me to think in terms of the specific boundaries of the city, since that's where we will want to live and won't have to deal so much with the grind of the "daily commute to and from the suburbs".

I had thought about Seattle, but the rain and dreary-ness of the city would be a bit too much for me. I do need sun and love to be outside (without being rained on).

Hot weather doesn't bother me so much, as long as it doesn't come with Humidity and doesn't last long. Here in northern cali, there are parts where the temps in the summer can rise above 100 and do that for a week at a stretch. The first day, you don't really notice, but by that 5th or 6th day, it becomes exhausting.

Likewise with cold weather. When I lived in Ann Arobor, you could count on a 2-3 week stretch in January where the temp did not go above 20-25 degrees. That was miserable. I would imagine the same is true in Chicago and Mnpls, if not worse. Having grown up in DC, I am not unfamiliar with temps dipping below freezing for the high temps, but it didn't last long. Then again, it was unheard of for the temps to get above 70 degrees between Nov and the end of Feb. 60 degrees was considered unusually warm during that time of year (similar to NYC).

For housing, we'd like to stay under $400K, but could go up to $450K "for the right house in the right neighborhood". We prefer older homes and are not at all into "mid-century modern". We'd love to get an old fixer and return it to its previous grandeur (we did that with a brownstone in Jersey City, NJ). I know prices out here are coming down in general, but prices in the more desirable neighborhoods of SF and Berkeley have not changed much. Instead, you simply cannot find anything on the market in those locations (less of a foreclosure situation in those areas).

I know people can't tell me if I'd be happy. I have to visit to get a feel for the city. I just want to know if the city has what I am looking for.

I'll do some research on the areas you mentioned. Thanks for the feedback.

[David Aguilar]

Originally Posted by PeixeGato

I had thought about Seattle, but the rain and dreary-ness of the city would be a bit too much for me. I do need sun and love to be outside (without being rained on).

Doesn't the Bay Area get a fair amount of rain/clouds as well? Seattle's yearly weather patterns are similar to SF, with more rain per month and cooler temps throughout the year (excluding summer). Can get dreary though, yet the rain there isn't of the pouring variety, more like drizzle most of the time. Makes me wonder why you'd give Portland a gander though.

Originally Posted by PeixeGato

there are parts where the temps in the summer can rise above 100 and do that for a week at a stretch. The first day, you don't really notice, but by that 5th or 6th day, it becomes exhausting.

That was this summer in Denver, in a nutshell, over and over again. This last summer in a word, sucked.

Originally Posted by PeixeGato

Likewise with cold weather. When I lived in Ann Arobor, you could count on a 2-3 week stretch in January where the temp did not go above 20-25 degrees.

Cold snaps here don't last that long, but we definitely do get a winter.

Originally Posted by PeixeGato

For housing, we'd like to stay under $400K, but could go up to $450K "for the right house in the right neighborhood". We prefer older homes and are not at all into "mid-century modern".

You could find homes in that range and style in any of those neighborhoods I mentioned, especially Congress Park.

Originally Posted by PeixeGato

We'd love to get an old fixer and return it to its previous grandeur (we did that with a brownstone in Jersey City, NJ).

Awesome.

[steveindenver]

Stapleton. You did not mention price ranges but considering where you live you will likely find a it a bargain.

[David Aguilar]

Originally Posted by steveindenver

Stapleton. You did not mention price ranges but considering where you live you will likely find a it a bargain.

The OP likes older homes.

[steveindenver]

Oh. Missed that part, still worth checking out IMO given the parks, trails and community amenities.

Congress Park is a good suggestion; no convenient grocery stores within easy walking distance -- but that is really a common complaint for just about everywhere.

Hale and Montclair do have a King Soopers and Safeway down towards 14th near Montview. Of course then you are trading Cheesem and and City Park for other things ....

If you are feeling eclectic and diverse you could look in the Baker neighborhood. Lot's of interesting stuff on Broadway around there in terms of shopping and food and the bums are much nicer than Colfax bums. A more laid back place.

Map of Denver neighborhoods:

http://www.denvergov.com/Portals/144..._NEIGH_Map.pdf

[2bindenver]

Depending on your price range and commute - all of Denver is open. There are cool houses in Berkeley, Sloans Lake, Park Hill, Observatory Park, Southmoor...

[PeixeGato]

Originally Posted by David Aguilar

Doesn't the Bay Area get a fair amount of rain/clouds as well? Seattle's yearly weather patterns are similar to SF, with more rain per month and cooler temps throughout the year (excluding summer). Can get dreary though, yet the rain there isn't of the pouring variety, more like drizzle most of the time. Makes me wonder why you'd give Portland a gander though.



That was this summer in Denver, in a nutshell, over and over again. This last summer in a word, sucked.

Interesting point. People out here complain that such streaks are unusual. But we've experienced such streaks several times every summer since we moved here in 2004. To me, it shouldn't be referred to as being so unusual.

Was it just summer of 2008 that was like that, or does it happen every summer? I may have to readjust my thinking on weather and choose the negative I can best live with.

[PeixeGato]

Originally Posted by steveindenver

Map of Denver neighborhoods:

http://www.denvergov.com/Portals/144..._NEIGH_Map.pdf

Thanks! This is helpful BIG time.