Progressive/Liberal Suburbs with Good Schools? (Denver, Colorado Springs: for sale, house, neighborhoods)

[denverian]

Originally Posted by David Aguilar

I totally see what you mean, and, more power to you! I wish I had what you have in your neighborhood.

What part of OC did you live in? That could have had something to do with it too. I had the family-like neighbors growing up in Riverside County, I really do miss that.



Sheesh, that sounds like my neighborhood , even with all the Obama signs during last campaign season.

I have to wonder sometimes why our neighborhood is the way it is. I don't think it's a liberal/conservative thing, although I think you find more conservatives who prefer isolation. Could it be because it was new when we moved in, so we were all in the same boat and got to know one another? Or is there some truth in the claim that New Urbanism design promotes a social atmosphere? For instance, no one has a huge back yard, so kids/parents gather in the parks and therefore interract. Mailboxes are placed so that you can't just drive up and grab your mail, so I often talk to neighbors while getting the mail. Or that people sit on their front porches, and porches are close enough to the sidewalks that you can have converstations with neighbors from the sidewalk. Or that the development is very walkable and many people are active. Or could it be that so many people are in the same age group (upper 20s to lower 40s)? That so many have kids in the same age group? Or maybe a combination of all these things.

We lived in the City of Orange. Definitely a more conservative area, but then most of OC is conservative. I loved the weather, and that's about it.

[David Aguilar]

Originally Posted by denverian

I have to wonder sometimes why our neighborhood is the way it is. I don't think it's a liberal/conservative thing, although I think you find more conservatives who prefer isolation. Could it be because it was new when we moved in, so we were all in the same boat and got to know one another? Or is there some truth in the claim that New Urbanism design promotes a social atmosphere? For instance, no one has a huge back yard, so kids/parents gather in the parks and therefore interract. Mailboxes are placed so that you can't just drive up and grab your mail, so I often talk to neighbors while getting the mail. Or that people sit on their front porches, and porches are close enough to the sidewalks that you can have converstations with neighbors from the sidewalk. Or that the development is very walkable and many people are active. Or could it be that so many people are in the same age group (upper 20s to lower 40s)? That so many have kids in the same age group? Or maybe a combination of all these things.

I've been wondering those exact things.

What is it exactly (formula-wise) that makes a friendly neighborhood? Or is there a formula?

[denverian]

Originally Posted by David Aguilar

I've been wondering those exact things.

What is it exactly (formula-wise) that makes a friendly neighborhood? Or is there a formula?

It's also interesting to see how neighborhoods evolve. What was the hip place for young families and kids in Thornton in the '60s is now a quiet area of mostly retirees. What was considered "ghetto" around City Park is now up and coming and desireable for young families. They all change over time. In 15 years, Stapleton will mostly be teenagers and parents in their 50s. Then as all the kids leave, then what? Or will new life keep moving in? Will it someday "go ghetto" (by that I mean dropping property values, no place for kids, people not keeping up their homes) or will it remain a desireable, Wash Park type 'hood?

[the3Ds]

Originally Posted by denverian

Well, for some of us, it's necessary. As a gay couple with children, we wouldn't subject our kids to a conservative area where we (and they) would be shunned by Bible thumping conservatives. And I know of one conservative couple who left Stapleton because they didn't like the fact that there were so many gay couples living here, and that everyone else was accepting of that.

Again, though...I don't think there is a connection between "liberal" and "friendly" or "cool" neighborhood. Does a "liberal" neighborhood mean people don't drive into their garages and put down the door? I could care less whether my neighbor is gay. How did your kids' friends know you were gay? Did you have a rainbow flag hanging outside your house? A sign saying "Jesus was gay" in your front window? Were you making out in your front yard? I haven't met many "bible thumping conservatives" here in Colorado. They were literally everywhere in Florida...always asking if they could pray with us when they ran into us at city festivals, etc. And the conservative couple who left Stapleton because there were so many gay couples there.... really? It's not like Stapleton has gay bars everywhere and last time I checked, there wasn't a gay rights march through downtown. My neighborhood, for some reason, has a very high population of Middle Eastern families. Some people have labeled Aurora as "Saudi Aurora" (a term I read recently on denverpost.com) so I guess there are idiots everywhere.

However, as many people have said, who talks to your neighbors about politics and religion? When I see my neighbors outside and we strike up conversations, it is usually about our kids or the lack of snow removal support, or what the weather is like, or if we've been to the big sale at Gymboree. The only reason I know my neighbor voted for Obama was because he had a sign in his yard.

Again, I'm still waiting for the definition of a "liberal/progressive" neighborhood. What does it look like? Do the kids ride their bikes in the streets and parents participate in the neighborhood school's PTO? "Friendly" does not equal "liberal." "Suburbia" does not equal "conservative." I think it's time for all of us to stop labeling ourselves as one political party or the other. The media outlets love to put us in a little box and dismiss us if we say "Merry Christmas" or have a US flag on the front of our house. Conservative tv and radio likes to label "liberals" as strung out ex hippies and gay rights activists beating up old ladies who show up at a rally.

For me, my only requirement for a good neighbor and a great neighborhood is it's lack of graffiti, people walking their dogs, kids riding bikes, yards maintained, a good school, and (hopefully) a lot of newspapers in the driveways in the morning. If you can provide that and participate in the keeping the neighborhood a nice place to live, I don't care if you're gay, part of a polygamist family, a Ron Paul supporter, a pot smoker or a "bible thumping conservative."

[Bradburn1]

Originally Posted by denverian

Or is there some truth in the claim that New Urbanism design promotes a social atmosphere?

Well I can speak to this. In my opinion the design of new urbanist neighborhoods without a doubt does promote a social/community atmosphere. There are a variety of reasons, many of the ones you mentioned apply. The biggest reason I think is the neighborhood is pedestrian friendly meaning: wide sidewalks that connect everywhere, and interesting places (parks/shops/restaurants) to walk to. The front porches are also a big component. People in my neighborhood are always outside walking or sitting on their front porches and as a consequence they meet and become friendly with their neighbors.

I moved to Bradburn Village from a standard tract subdivision (which was also new so that wasn't apparently a factor) where people just drove in and out of their garages, they never went outside unless they were in their own backyards. I knew almost none of my neighbors there. I know all my neighbors in Bradburn and not just the ones on my street, nearly all the neighbors on every street (keep in mind our neighborhood is much smaller than Stapleton, around 150 homes or so built right now not including the townhomes and condos).

I've also spoken to people living in new urbanist neighborhoods across the U.S. (about five others, not the largest sample size I admit) and asked them if this was the same where they live and they've all said yes, that they all know their neighbors as well and have a strong sense of community.

Personally, I can't imagine ever moving because I like living here so much because of that sense of community, it can be hard to find other places. Some of my neighbors have been transferred for work and chose to only move into another new urbanist neighborhood for that reason and found the same sense of community (specifically they moved from Bradburn to the Middleton Hills new urbanist neighborhood in Madison, WI).

I don't think though that a friendly, neighborly community really has that much to do with political orientation, my neighbors in Bradburn are diverse in that way but we do all share one thing in common: the desire to live in a real community. There is an exception however, we have also had people who didn't like the fact we have visible and accepted gay couples with children as a part of our community--and they moved (fine by me personally). Not sure if that is specifically liberal or conservative as people can be one way on one issue and the other way on a different issue, but many people associate non tolerance of the gay members of our community with conservatives.

[Scott5280]

You might also consider the Holiday Development in North Boulder--there are some other New Urbanist communites adjacent to that project as well...The North Boulder area north and east of Wonderland Hill and even Wonerland Hill itself could be
described as liberal progressive..I used to live in Boulder's Wonderland Hill...family friendly, great schools,and very liberal neighborhood of Boulder..Prices range broadly from upper 300's for smaller condos up to over several million in area...North of that is an area called the Ridge--many newer housing options there as well--that's roughly located near highway 36 and Broadway interchange..

[denverian]

Originally Posted by the3Ds

Again, though...I don't think there is a connection between "liberal" and "friendly" or "cool" neighborhood. Does a "liberal" neighborhood mean people don't drive into their garages and put down the door? I could care less whether my neighbor is gay. How did your kids' friends know you were gay? Did you have a rainbow flag hanging outside your house? A sign saying "Jesus was gay" in your front window? Were you making out in your front yard? I haven't met many "bible thumping conservatives" here in Colorado. They were literally everywhere in Florida...always asking if they could pray with us when they ran into us at city festivals, etc. And the conservative couple who left Stapleton because there were so many gay couples there.... really? It's not like Stapleton has gay bars everywhere and last time I checked, there wasn't a gay rights march through downtown. My neighborhood, for some reason, has a very high population of Middle Eastern families. Some people have labeled Aurora as "Saudi Aurora" (a term I read recently on denverpost.com) so I guess there are idiots everywhere.

However, as many people have said, who talks to your neighbors about politics and religion? When I see my neighbors outside and we strike up conversations, it is usually about our kids or the lack of snow removal support, or what the weather is like, or if we've been to the big sale at Gymboree. The only reason I know my neighbor voted for Obama was because he had a sign in his yard.

Again, I'm still waiting for the definition of a "liberal/progressive" neighborhood. What does it look like? Do the kids ride their bikes in the streets and parents participate in the neighborhood school's PTO? "Friendly" does not equal "liberal." "Suburbia" does not equal "conservative." I think it's time for all of us to stop labeling ourselves as one political party or the other. The media outlets love to put us in a little box and dismiss us if we say "Merry Christmas" or have a US flag on the front of our house. Conservative tv and radio likes to label "liberals" as strung out ex hippies and gay rights activists beating up old ladies who show up at a rally.

For me, my only requirement for a good neighbor and a great neighborhood is it's lack of graffiti, people walking their dogs, kids riding bikes, yards maintained, a good school, and (hopefully) a lot of newspapers in the driveways in the morning. If you can provide that and participate in the keeping the neighborhood a nice place to live, I don't care if you're gay, part of a polygamist family, a Ron Paul supporter, a pot smoker or a "bible thumping conservative."

My kids are only 11 mo., so they have no friends right now. But are you serious? You think their friends aren't going to know they have gay parents? No, there's no rainbow flag or front lawn sex going on Everyone in the neighborhood knows we're partners - in fact, we're the couple who's been together the longest on our block. Do you not get that we live in a social neighborhood? We're friends with our neighbors? Do you think our friends don't know we're gay? Do your friends not know you're married, if you are, or do they just think you have an "opposite sex roommate"? No, there are no gay bars in Stapleton, but there are more gay couples here than the average suburban neighborhood. So if two men moved in next door to you in their 30s or 40s, you wouldn't be able to figure out they're gay? One doesn't have to run around in leather chaps waving a rainbow flag and yelling, "you go girl!" for others to figure out he's gay!

The reality is, our kid's friends and the entire neighborhood will/do know they have two dads. I'm guessing you're not a minority of any type since you don't seem to understand. But how you can think that no one would even figure out that we're a gay couple with kids is beyond me. The reality is that if we moved into a conservative cul-de-sac in the Springs or Douglas County, we'd have issues with neighbors, and our children would have issues. Therefore we don't live in an area like that. The reason we chose a liberal neighborhood is for our kids benefit (studies show that kids with gay parents have a rough time in conservative/right wing religious areas) and because we're treated like equals by our married neighbors. That certainly wasn't the case in conservative Orange County. Why should I have to pretend to the neighbors that my partner is my "roommate"? In Stapleton, I can tell anyone that I have a partner and children and no one blinks an eye. I don't believe that would be the same in Highlands Ranch. Not that everyone in HR dislikes gay people, but it's no secret that HR (and similar 'burbs) are conservative and have many evangelical Christians, the people who fight against gay rights like their lives depend on it. Do you honestly think that if my kids went to a school where many kids came from evangelical households where they're taught that being gay is an abomination/choice/etc., that they wouldn't have problems?

What's a liberal neighborhood? It's a neighborhood where the majority of residents are liberal. Stapleton, Park Hill, Congress Park, City Park, Cap. Hill, Uptown, Highlands <--- there are a few off the top of my head. Suburbia does often equal conservative, or at least conservative leaning. Older suburbs are trending less conservative, if not liberal leaning. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I can't just ignore all labels and pretend like my life will be the same, no matter what neighborhood I move into. Not everyone has your "live and let live" attitude. Evangelicals feel it's their job to make life miserable for gay people, so I choose not to live among them. If you're a heterosexual married couple, the right wing nut Christians aren't going to bother you or your kids, even if you're not one of them. If a gay couple w/kids moves in on their block, they're going to feel like their sworn enemy moved in.

A world without labels would be nice - I feel like I have that in my liberal neighborhood, where my relationship with my partner is treated as equal to the married couples. Plus there are other gay couples w/kids, so my own kids won't grow up feeling like oddities. Unfortunately, many in our world put labels on us, and see us only for the label they imposed. So I have to deal with that reality.

[denverian]

Originally Posted by Bradburn1

Well I can speak to this. In my opinion the design of new urbanist neighborhoods without a doubt does promote a social/community atmosphere. There are a variety of reasons, many of the ones you mentioned apply. The biggest reason I think is the neighborhood is pedestrian friendly meaning: wide sidewalks that connect everywhere, and interesting places (parks/shops/restaurants) to walk to. The front porches are also a big component. People in my neighborhood are always outside walking or sitting on their front porches and as a consequence they meet and become friendly with their neighbors.

I moved to Bradburn Village from a standard tract subdivision (which was also new so that wasn't apparently a factor) where people just drove in and out of their garages, they never went outside unless they were in their own backyards. I knew almost none of my neighbors there. I know all my neighbors in Bradburn and not just the ones on my street, nearly all the neighbors on every street (keep in mind our neighborhood is much smaller than Stapleton, around 150 homes or so built right now not including the townhomes and condos).

I've also spoken to people living in new urbanist neighborhoods across the U.S. (about five others, not the largest sample size I admit) and asked them if this was the same where they live and they've all said yes, that they all know their neighbors as well and have a strong sense of community.

Personally, I can't imagine ever moving because I like living here so much because of that sense of community, it can be hard to find other places. Some of my neighbors have been transferred for work and chose to only move into another new urbanist neighborhood for that reason and found the same sense of community (specifically they moved from Bradburn to the Middleton Hills new urbanist neighborhood in Madison, WI).

I don't think though that a friendly, neighborly community really has that much to do with political orientation, my neighbors in Bradburn are diverse in that way but we do all share one thing in common: the desire to live in a real community. There is an exception however, we have also had people who didn't like the fact we have visible and accepted gay couples with children as a part of our community--and they moved (fine by me personally). Not sure if that is specifically liberal or conservative as people can be one way on one issue and the other way on a different issue, but many people associate non tolerance of the gay members of our community with conservatives.

That's interesting and is what I thought in the first place. Traditional suburban design is rather isoating, and people are able to live in more isolation in traditional suburbs. I've also people say they think places like Stapleton are horrible because of the small lots - meaning they want large lots, don't want to see/interract with neighbors, etc. I'm sure some people are happier with less neighbor interraction, but like you, I wouldn't want to live any other way.

[bhcompy]

Originally Posted by denverian

That's interesting and is what I thought in the first place. Traditional suburban design is rather isoating, and people are able to live in more isolation in traditional suburbs. I've also people say they think places like Stapleton are horrible because of the small lots - meaning they want large lots, don't want to see/interract with neighbors, etc. I'm sure some people are happier with less neighbor interraction, but like you, I wouldn't want to live any other way.

I don't see it this way. I grew up in Lakewood, CA, which is a traditional suburb(in Levittown style). Regular 50s ranch houses on mediocre sized lots, but lots of community feeling. What brings together the community isn't the style of housing, it's the community activities. Lakewood was named Sports Illustrated top city for youth sports in the US a few years back, and the McDonalds in the heart of Lakewood that's been there for ages has the Lakewood Sports Hall of Fame with all of the professional athetes, olympians, and collegiate atheletes that came out of the city on the walls inside the restaurant. The strong local sports programs(among other programs) foster community interaction, and thus the community is becomes tight.

Interestingly enough, this brings in lots of families with young children which keeps the youth sports programs going. This effect seems to be happening in Highlands Ranch as well(with the schools being a primary factor too), though HR is only reaching 25-30 years at this point. If Stapleton wants to be a family neighorhood, they'll need to attract people with schools and youth programs/sports. As an outsider, the appeal I see is more for adults than children, but pricing places me out of Stapleton anyways, so I haven't dug any deeper that what I see here.

[denverian]

Originally Posted by bhcompy

I don't see it this way. I grew up in Lakewood, CA, which is a traditional suburb(in Levittown style). Regular 50s ranch houses on mediocre sized lots, but lots of community feeling. What brings together the community isn't the style of housing, it's the community activities. Lakewood was named Sports Illustrated top city for youth sports in the US a few years back, and the McDonalds in the heart of Lakewood that's been there for ages has the Lakewood Sports Hall of Fame with all of the professional athetes, olympians, and collegiate atheletes that came out of the city on the walls inside the restaurant. The strong local sports programs(among other programs) foster community interaction, and thus the community is becomes tight.

Interestingly enough, this brings in lots of families with young children which keeps the youth sports programs going. This effect seems to be happening in Highlands Ranch as well(with the schools being a primary factor too), though HR is only reaching 25-30 years at this point. If Stapleton wants to be a family neighorhood, they'll need to attract people with schools and youth programs/sports. As an outsider, the appeal I see is more for adults than children, but pricing places me out of Stapleton anyways, so I haven't dug any deeper that what I see here.

That makes sense. Just because a neighborhood ages doesn't mean young families stop moving in - something has to happen to keep them away.

Stapleton has good schools and the developer is very aware that is needs to be family friendly. The new Central Park has sports fields, a new library and rec center will soon be built, there are 3 pools, one of which is a kids pool - it's very kid friendly. If you live in Stapleton and have no kids, you're in the minority.