road to the future (Denver, Highlands Ranch: houses, neighborhoods, living in)

[zenkonami]

"Well we're clearly not in Denver anymore" our humble correspondent informs us at the beginning of the Portland segment. He then goes on to talk at length about the city of Portland proper and all it's decisions and amazing ideas, etc...

But the "Denver" segment seemed to go on at length about Highlands Ranch, Centennial, Broomfield, Aurora, and even (in a rare moment of, if you will, "unbiased praise" <cough, cough>) Golden...but hardly touched on the city of Denver. It's irresponsible, biased, and poor journalism at it's best. I understand that there is plenty of sprawl to be had around the Denver area, but wouldn't Phoenix, or perhaps even Kansas City have been more appropriate choices to make their case about highways and sprawl?

Much of my desire to move to Denver revolves around what the city of Denver proper is doing *now*, from transit plans to urban infill...the way Denver's downtown basically has a little bit of everything all in (fundamentally) one place instead of spread out for miles and miles.

Almost every major city in the country suffers from some kind of sprawl now, but some cities have taken strong steps to rebuild their cores into something livable and enjoyable while others (Kansas City, for example) continue to spread out in every direction. Denver seems to me to exist more on the urbanizing side of the scale than the sprawling side, even if some of those decisions in the outer cities are still a bit slow to catch on. Am I mistaken in my understanding of the Denver metro area?

[MantaRay]

Originally Posted by woob

Did anyone catch this documentary on pbs tonight comparing the transportation policy and history of denver, portland and new york?

Road to the Future ~ Overview | Blueprint America

I'm moving from NYC to denver and this show was a bit discouraging but i'd be interested in the locals' perspective. Here in new york city we are converting driving lanes into pedestrian plazas and bike paths. Broadway is being closed off to car traffic through Times Square. Will we ever see such bold steps taking place in denver?

What I'm about to say is from the perspective of someone who has Denver in his top 3 places to retire list because of the research I've done and from visiting.

Denver has one of the most, if not THE most extensive build-outs of bike (pedestrian) paths of any city in America. You can honestly bike from just about any part of Denver to just about any other part of Denver off the streets, ie. on paths or sidewalks. And there are some bike lanes on the street as well. NYC is converting driving lanes into pedestrian lanes to do what Denver has already done- except it's impractical for NYC to build bike trails in "greenway" format like Denver has because NYC has been built specifically grid, and street oriented, so its new embracing of the bicyclist has to happen on the backbone of the streets already built. Many of the paths in Denver, on the other hand, run alongside creeks and rivers and through parks as well as along street routes.

On pedestrian plazas, Denver's 16th Street Mall IS a pedestrian plaza, and one of very few among American cities. Again, New York closing off Broadway through Times Square is in many ways a re-creation of Denver closing off 16th street to commuter traffic to open it up to pedestrians and public transportation only (if all you could do is walk up and down the 16th street mall, it would be kinda tough on a lot of people).

You ask the question will we ever see such bold steps taking place in Denver, when the reality is that NYC is FOLLOWING Denver's bold steps in embracing the pedestrian via pedestrian malls and bike paths. And aside from just those examples, Denver is leading all US cities in building out new pedestrian-oriented town centers around it's metro. Belmar, Northfield, Southlands, South Glenn, Bradburn, Westminster Prominade/Walnut Creek, Orchard Town Center. Of course NYC was already built dense, which meant that there was no choice but to put retail in proximity to residential with pedestrian connections. But American suburbs have typically not been built that way. Denver is building practically all its suburbs that way and now has suburban town centers in almost every part of town.

So overall, Denver is THE pre-eminent US city for bold steps in increasing pedestrian-orientation in modern times (Portland notwithstanding). And it is precisely that which put Denver on my Top 3 list for retirement.

[MantaRay]

Originally Posted by zenkonami

Denver seems to me to exist more on the urbanizing side of the scale than the sprawling side, even if some of those decisions in the outer cities are still a bit slow to catch on. Am I mistaken in my understanding of the Denver metro area?

Not at all. Especially with all the town centers springing up everywhere. The town center model IS the urban model. The basic problem with sprawl is not really how far a metro area stretches out, but the extent to which everybody in that area drives to downtown in the morning and away from downtown in the evenings. If you build DTCs and town centers in various parts of the city (parts that are not downtown), you necessarily create employment centers that are not downtown, and by doing so you necessarily work against sprawl. There is always going to be SOME sprawl in major cities by virtue of the fact that downtowns in big cities are typically employment behemoths and families typically prefer the suburbs. However, to the extent you can create employment centers in other parts of town (DTC, town centers), tie them to the surrounding residential neighborhoods, and at the same time create family friendly neighborhoods close to the city core (Capitol Hill, Washington Park, Stapleton, etc), you work against sprawl. You take away some of that "drive from suburbs to downtown in the morning and vice-versa in the evening" activity. You take away some of that by providing substantial employment outside of the downtown vicinity and substantial family living in the downtown vicinity. And that is exactly what Denver has done and is doing.

[woob]

Denver has one of the most, if not THE most extensive build-outs of bike (pedestrian) paths of any city in America. You can honestly bike from just about any part of Denver to just about any other part of Denver off the streets

It is fortuitous that denver maintained a right of way for bikes and pedestrians along its rivers, but since then the city has managed to rip out its streetcars, widen roads and build interstates through the heart of downtown. "Urban renewal" did tremendous damage throughout america, but the point of this documentary was that portland managed to avoid this fate. It is unfortunate that the show completely ignored denver's urban core, but i guess that would have watered down its narrative Now denver is spending billions to reverse what was done during the 1970's.

Maybe denver will also return "back to the future" and get streetcars rolling again along colfax and broadway. Imagine if we still had this-

[denverian]

Originally Posted by zenkonami

"Well we're clearly not in Denver anymore" our humble correspondent informs us at the beginning of the Portland segment. He then goes on to talk at length about the city of Portland proper and all it's decisions and amazing ideas, etc...

But the "Denver" segment seemed to go on at length about Highlands Ranch, Centennial, Broomfield, Aurora, and even (in a rare moment of, if you will, "unbiased praise" <cough, cough>) Golden...but hardly touched on the city of Denver. It's irresponsible, biased, and poor journalism at it's best. I understand that there is plenty of sprawl to be had around the Denver area, but wouldn't Phoenix, or perhaps even Kansas City have been more appropriate choices to make their case about highways and sprawl?

Much of my desire to move to Denver revolves around what the city of Denver proper is doing *now*, from transit plans to urban infill...the way Denver's downtown basically has a little bit of everything all in (fundamentally) one place instead of spread out for miles and miles.

Almost every major city in the country suffers from some kind of sprawl now, but some cities have taken strong steps to rebuild their cores into something livable and enjoyable while others (Kansas City, for example) continue to spread out in every direction. Denver seems to me to exist more on the urbanizing side of the scale than the sprawling side, even if some of those decisions in the outer cities are still a bit slow to catch on. Am I mistaken in my understanding of the Denver metro area?

No, you summed it up well. I once compared KC to Denver metro areas on a satellite map and they have about the same footprint (land area) overall, but Denver Metro has about a million more people in the same footprint. KC has no light rail, little infill compared to Denver, suburbs are much more spread out, more freeway miles than Denver, poor bus system - it would have been much better for their documentary.

[denverian]

Originally Posted by woob

It is fortuitous that denver maintained a right of way for bikes and pedestrians along its rivers, but since then the city has managed to rip out its streetcars, widen roads and build interstates through the heart of downtown. "Urban renewal" did tremendous damage throughout america, but the point of this documentary was that portland managed to avoid this fate. It is unfortunate that the show completely ignored denver's urban core, but i guess that would have watered down its narrative Now denver is spending billions to reverse what was done during the 1970's.

Maybe denver will also return "back to the future" and get streetcars rolling again along colfax and broadway. Imagine if we still had this-

Uh... there are no freeways "through the heart of downtown". I-25 runs along the west side, but not "through the heart". L.A. has freeways surrounding/running through downtown. KC has a tight loop built around downtown. Denver's downtown connects directly into established neighborhoods to the north, south, and east.

[livecontent]

Originally Posted by woob

It is fortuitous that denver maintained a right of way for bikes and pedestrians along its rivers, but since then the city has managed to rip out its streetcars, widen roads and build interstates through the heart of downtown. "Urban renewal" did tremendous damage throughout america, but the point of this documentary was that portland managed to avoid this fate. It is unfortunate that the show completely ignored denver's urban core, but i guess that would have watered down its narrative Now denver is spending billions to reverse what was done during the 1970's.

Maybe denver will also return "back to the future" and get streetcars rolling again along colfax and broadway. Imagine if we still had this-

We do not want to fall in love with the whimsical ideas of streetcars and to go back and use them because they just look "cute". These issues have been addressed numerous times in the RTD meetings, I have attended, as a considered alternative to light rail.

One of the problem is that in Streetcar days the roads where not as highly congested with autos. Putting in street cars, with dedicated tracks, takes away auto lanes, which are heavily used today. However, with buses we have multiple use lanes. This is not to say that streetcars do not, or will not, have some application in the future of Denver transit.

We can argue that streetcars would do away with auto travel and should. Yes, in some locations we should heavily restrict auto traffic and we do; as we have done on the 16th Street Mall. The buses running on this mall are essentially a "streetcar" with a dedicated lane. Also, these buses are hybrid-electric powered. Maybe in the future of this Mall and the extension that there will be a change to a different technology, perhaps streetcars. I am hoping that we can restrict autos from more of the downtown business area.

I have looked at the map you provided. I am a heavy public transit user in the area. I can assure you, we have these transit routes and much more covered today. Let us point out the main routes, for example, Broadway, Route 0, 0L; and West Colfax, Route 16,16L; and East Colfax, Route 15, 15L. These routes run on a frequency of 10-15 minutes, most of the day, and have limited buses, that stop at selected stops. In addition, they run almost 24 hours a day. They do provide much better service than any streetcars did at that time. You do not have to imagine the "streetcars", on these streets; we already have it in place.

The difference, of course, with most streetcar, technology is electrified with overhead lines or rail. These then would require a dedicated path that cannot be changed readily. Buses do not require these restrictions. The newer technologies would encompass buses and Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) operated with different fuels as electric or hydrogen or hybrid-electric, as I pointed out for the buses on the 16th street mall. In addition, BRT is part of Fastracks along the I-36 corridor and is now being built.

We must also keep in mind that the light rails that we now operate are, in many ways, a substitution for streetcars and are designed essentially for dense city cores.

Our future designs for the transportation needs will be a multi-modal approach with the appropriate technology that fits that situational needs; that is light rail, heavy rail, BRT, buses, bicycles, pedestrians, call n' rides, park n' rides, and automobiles. Transportation Policy cannot be only one technology, we need all; and that includes automobile transit. Public transit is not going to be a full substitute for autos; it will be part of the solution.

The downtown core today is served by light rail, the 16th mall shuttle and two dedicated bus stations, a pedestrian mall; and bike lanes along Cherry Creek and the Platte. Also, we have a traffic flow pattern for buses and auto where 17th street is one way to the NE, and 15th street is one way to the SW, which makes a loop around 16th street. Most local buses follow this route, serving downtown, stopping at either a X, Y, or Z stop. Express and Regional Buses all go into the bus terminals on the Mall. This is a great example of an good integrated multi-modal system. Also, Union Station redevelopment will soon start for the new commuter rails coming into downtown.

We are already on the Road to the Future and we should be proud of our achievements.

Livecontent

[denver_hacker]

Originally Posted by woob

Maybe denver will also return "back to the future" and get streetcars rolling again along colfax and broadway. Imagine if we still had this-

Hey - very cool map!

The rail tracks are still under the asphalt for most of those routes. That's why Broadway is raised in the center. When I lived by S. Pearl St., they had to cut out a chunk of the tracks to do some pipe work.

Sad to say, I think at this point street cars wouldn't work going back in. The streets are too congested as is and to take away surface area for a tram wouldn't make sense when a bus can do the job just fine. Plus buses are more flexible with their routes if need be.

I do like the antique street cars in SF though (not the the cable cars), they're very cool.

Also, they should have compared Beaverton to Highlands Ranch..or Denver proper to Portland. Portland to Highlands Ranch and calling it 'Denver' is disingenuous.

[woob]

livecontent- i can tell you have put a lot of thought into these issues and also speak from experience. here are a couple of my thoughts.

One of the problem is that in Streetcar days the roads where not as highly congested with autos. Putting in street cars, with dedicated tracks, takes away auto lanes

The roads are congested with autos because space was provided for that mode at the expense of all others. Changing our car dominated system requires using both a carrot and a stick- make it easier to get around by transit and make it more difficult to drive. Replacing driving lanes with separated bus lanes, street cars or bike lanes would accomplish just this. For example, when I was exploring various neighborhoods, I thought the shops and business along south broadway were great, except the roar of 5 lanes of traffic made the pedestrian experience pretty miserable. Now that there is light rail running south, it seems converting a lane of traffic into "open space" for pedestrians would be a boon for businesses and the neighborhood.

Second- Buses are not a replacement for streetcars or rail because they have no dedicated right of way, get blocked by traffic and double parkers (at least here in new york, you could walk faster than the speed of a bus) BRT is a step in the right direction, but fastracks seems mostly designed to serve the outer neighborhoods and suburbs. I am surprised it did not also include funding and plans for improved transit within downtown.

OK, I am speaking as an outsider who is excited to move to the city, but have only spent a couple days in denver. Maybe I am speaking out prematurely but I am only trying to provide my perspective as to what an urban experience can be.

[livecontent]

Originally Posted by woob

livecontent- i can tell you have put a lot of thought into these issues and also speak from experience. here are a couple of my thoughts.
The roads are congested with autos because space was provided for that mode at the expense of all others. Changing our car dominated system requires using both a carrot and a stick- make it easier to get around by transit and make it more difficult to drive. Replacing driving lanes with separated bus lanes, street cars or bike lanes would accomplish just this. For example, when I was exploring various neighborhoods, I thought the shops and business along south broadway were great, except the roar of 5 lanes of traffic made the pedestrian experience pretty miserable. Now that there is light rail running south, it seems converting a lane of traffic into "open space" for pedestrians would be a boon for businesses and the neighborhood.

Second- Buses are not a replacement for streetcars or rail because they have no dedicated right of way, get blocked by traffic and double parkers (at least here in new york, you could walk faster than the speed of a bus) BRT is a step in the right direction, but fastracks seems mostly designed to serve the outer neighborhoods and suburbs. I am surprised it did not also include funding and plans for improved transit within downtown.

OK, I am speaking as an outsider who is excited to move to the city, but have only spent a couple days in denver. Maybe I am speaking out prematurely but I am only trying to provide my perspective as to what an urban experience can be.

I agree with the concept of the carrot and the stick. I would be more than happy in closing some lanes to traffic and having a pedestrian lane.

You are correct that buses do not have a dedicated lane and indeed that is a problem with that type of transport. However, we do have bus only lanes on the highway which become high occupancy vehicle (HOA) lanes. Then some bright idiot decided that rich people should not be impeded and now they have become "lexus" lanes if you pay a fee. I would left them only as bus transit lanes.

I do not think that Broadway will be changed but I do think that some other streets within downtown will change and become more pedestrian friendly. Our current popular Mayor Hickenlooper is very progressive in these issues.

You are wrong in your assessment that RTD only provides for the suburbs. Actually the complaint is that too much public transit goes through downtown and there is a lack of transit from suburbs to suburbs. Most of Denver is adequately served by buses. Hopefully that will change with the full implementation of the commuter rail.

Again you are mistaken about Fastracks. It has allocated a great deal of money to downtown with the Union Station Development which includes a great deal of interdependent projects that will impact all of downtown. Another project is the extension of the existing central corridor to 38th and Blake. Fastracks is also about more buses and that would include covering downtown. What you do not know is that the previous rail projects, where all for downtown, and Fastracks is to extend that service out from the commuting center. In addition, the 16th Street Mall is an RTD funded project.

I am now retired and I hardly drive. I have driven about 2500 miles last year. My car is 15 years old and is just hitting 70,000 miles. I am hoping in the future to become completely car free. There will be a new rail station within 1/3 mile from my house on the Gold Line Corridor, under fastracks. In addition, that will improve feeder buses, in my area to that station. Today I am also 1/3 mile, in the other direction, from the main 51 Sheridan Bus, so I do have good bus service.

I am disabled and I am qualified for the Paratransit bus to pick me up at my house. That also gives me a free pass on all buses and rail, because, at times, RTD knows that health conditions change, sometimes I can walk, and giving a pass relieves them of the pressure of providing this service.

I think you will like Denver because it is moving in the right direction.

Livecontent