Moving to Denver ....?'s on Racism (minimum wage, vs., assessments)

[denverian]

Originally Posted by TurcoLoco

Could it just be that particular -presumed- gay cashier was unprofessional or rude to openly express his understandable or otherwise frustration?
May be he was acting that way just that day because of whatever reasons?
I can't help but think that most if not all minorities are overly aware of their status and feel that any odd or unacceptable reaction or treatment they get from others are because of their minority status where in fact may not be.

Of course, sometimes, you being the minority is the case with undeniable facts but sometimes, it may seem that way because the minority person in question could be overly aware of or anticipating against other party(ies) beingracist or prejudice.

I am a minority with an accent (may be not that bad but still noticable in a conversation) but I do not assume that every single freakin' time someone is being rude to me, it is because I am a foreigner and that person is racist and/or prejudice. That would be a silly way of overlooking the real reasons. Perhaps, I was rude to them? Perhaps the person is rude to everyone such as he is a mean person. Heck may be the guy is sick and that makes him cranky (I tend to get edgy and grumpy when I am sick).

I'm sure the cashier was gay. As my partner would say, when he opened his mouth, a purse fell out! Probably a long day, and he was treating everyone the same. But I do know many gay men who don't like babies and children.

I had someone keep e-mailing me anti-Obama crap before the election, and I kept e-mailing him back with the Snopes link to show him he was forwarding false stories. Anyway, he sent one last one that was supposedly some friend of his who had stayed in a hotel in New York right after Obama and McCain had been there. According to this woman who had talked to the concierge, McCain was very friendly to the white concierge and hugged him. Obama didn't hug him and was "aloof". So the conclusion was that Obama was racist toward white people. I e-mailed him back and said, "If being aloof toward people you don't know in public makes you racist, then someone call the Grand Wizard and get me a white robe and pointy cap, because I must be a real bigot!"

[wanttomoveeast]

haha, I've enjoyed reading the latest posts.

Denverian, I completely get what you are saying. Since I'm hetero I get to hear more often blatant anti-gay remarks, although usually from my already stupid stupid coworker.

Scott: Thanks for sharing your story.

Turco: A lot of what we are talking about is U.S. based in that we have a certain distinct history that has caused this black/white rift. And in more recent years the gay rift. What you say about can't helping but think that blacks are overly sensitive... well... what I have to say to that is that statement is exactly what I was describing by a rift, a dividing between blacks and whites here. I posted something about it earlier in a long post. I don't think you meant it to sound this way, this is how I took it, but saying that blacks are sensitive and jumping to conclusions on racism is sort of lacking in empathy towards others who are different than you. But with that said, there are def. people who (like I said earlier) jump to conclusions and are overly sensitive. I just think that to come to that conclusion first almost invalidates what we are saying. Like to the gay black man, "oh you were just over seeing it, maybe he wasn't gay, maybe he was just grouchy", sort of invalidates what the gay black man is telling you. Just my 2 cents.

Denverian: What you said about Obama and McCain made me think of my own family, extended that is. It's almost like their (almost) hidden racist thoughts came out during that election. It was really sad for me. None of my extended family was interested in the issues. One member actually said that Michelle Obama looked trashy and ghetto. Okayyyy.

[denverian]

Originally Posted by wanttomoveeast

haha, I've enjoyed reading the latest posts.

Denverian, I completely get what you are saying. Since I'm hetero I get to hear more often blatant anti-gay remarks, although usually from my already stupid stupid coworker.

Scott: Thanks for sharing your story.

Turco: A lot of what we are talking about is U.S. based in that we have a certain distinct history that has caused this black/white rift. And in more recent years the gay rift. What you say about can't helping but think that blacks are overly sensitive... well... what I have to say to that is that statement is exactly what I was describing by a rift, a dividing between blacks and whites here. I posted something about it earlier in a long post. I don't think you meant it to sound this way, this is how I took it, but saying that blacks are sensitive and jumping to conclusions on racism is sort of lacking in empathy towards others who are different than you. But with that said, there are def. people who (like I said earlier) jump to conclusions and are overly sensitive. I just think that to come to that conclusion first almost invalidates what we are saying. Like to the gay black man, "oh you were just over seeing it, maybe he wasn't gay, maybe he was just grouchy", sort of invalidates what the gay black man is telling you. Just my 2 cents.

Denverian: What you said about Obama and McCain made me think of my own family, extended that is. It's almost like their (almost) hidden racist thoughts came out during that election. It was really sad for me. None of my extended family was interested in the issues. One member actually said that Michelle Obama looked trashy and ghetto. Okayyyy.

I think sometimes people assume you think like them, and then say things you may find horrifying. Like when I was in Charleston, SC 8 years ago and a cab driver started tossing around the N word - I didn't grow up in the south or anywhere that it's socially acceptable to do that, so I was totally shocked. I was insulted that this man thought that I would say anything like that, or agree with him, just because I was white.

Where we live in Denver, all our neighbors have been very accepting of us and supportive of us having our children (even threw us a huge baby shower) but I have to wonder if someone hasn't said something negative behind closed doors. Oh well, it's nothing I dwell on and as long as people are nice to us, I can't complain.

That was my thought with this friend - that he was actually projecting his own racism onto Obama, or something like that. Something just rubed me the wrong way when rumors that Obama was racist against white people were spreading, albeit under the radar. I suspect it was one of those whisper campaigns to stir up racist people. I think Michelle is classy and beautiful and will make us proud as First Lady. You're probably right about these things being sort of hidden racism. The people saying these types of things might not even realize how bad they sound.

[wanttomoveeast]

One thing I've come to notice in recent years is how politics (now it's not just Obama and Michelle, but also their kids are being targeted just a little) and political issues (immigration) are the curtains for racists. Once they come in the limelight, all of a sudden the idiots come out of the woodworks and they feel it's ok to be that way under the rouse of politics.

[TurcoLoco]

Originally Posted by wanttomoveeast

Turco: A lot of what we are talking about is U.S. based in that we have a certain distinct history that has caused this black/white rift.

I was talking about the Us as well, I have been here almost 2 decades and believe me when I left Turkey there were no riff on black/white or gay people so I would not be able to comment anyhow. Everything I was saying was simply my opinion according to what you guys have stated in the last several posts.

And in more recent years the gay rift. What you say about can't helping but think that blacks are overly sensitive... well... what I have to say to that is that statement is exactly what I was describing by a rift, a dividing between blacks and whites here. I posted something about it earlier in a long post. I don't think you meant it to sound this way, this is how I took it, but saying that blacks are sensitive and jumping to conclusions on racism is sort of lacking in empathy towards others who are different than you. But with that said, there are def. people who (like I said earlier) jump to conclusions and are overly sensitive.

Again, it is not about jumping to conclusion (by saying that you actually seem to be the one jumping to a conclusion imho), I was not saying you guys are right or wrong. I was only trying to point out another angle, another perspective, not to disagree or agree with anything said or anyone involved. I am not black nor gay but I am a minority regardless and had experienced unpleasant, unwanted hostility or just plain crappy attitudes from various people in this country due to my accent, nationality, etc. so even though I am neither black nor gay, I can related in a certain way and I know I might have misjudged people's reactions or attitudes towards me by assuming that it was because of my accent, nationality, religion, etc.
Of course there are intances that it is obvious that they are being racist/prejudice but I wanted to mention that because of previously experienced racism, a person could overreact or be overly sensitive.

If I see a gay couple or interracial couple, I would never look at them funny because their race or sexual orientation, however, I would smile or look at them with amusement, if the gay couple is acting very gay which is to me, could be funny at times, then whether they are offended or not, (I'd do my best not to or be obvious) I might be looking at them and laughing. I might have done it in the past.
I am not racist or prejudice but I see something funny or odd, I may look at it and even react, I am only human and I will not be ashamed of it.
People can make fun of my accent or make stupid comments, I have been putting up with it the last 18+ years, it never got to me. I hate major attitudes and swearing even from Armenians and Greeks for being Turkish.
Heck, quite a few Turkish people got attacked in the States by the Armenian nutjobs but never a case where a Turkish person attacked them due to racism or prejudice, never in the history, yet I hate people swearing at me, as a person, for some -supposed- crap my ancestors had done decades even centuries ago. I never had any ill intend towards any soul on this planet (I do dislike Martians a bit though), never knew racism till I came here and all of a sudden, racism up to ying-yang, random characters cussing at me and even trying to get physical because of my nationality, etc., what is up with that?
I still am not racism nor prejudice, but now, I hate everyone equally.



...kidding about the last sentence of course.

I just think that to come to that conclusion first almost invalidates what we are saying. Like to the gay black man, "oh you were just over seeing it, maybe he wasn't gay, maybe he was just grouchy", sort of invalidates what the gay black man is telling you. Just my 2 cents.

Hmmm, nope that is not what I was saying, really, again you kinda warped my comments and perhaps misunderstand because you didn't like what you read or thought I disagreed with you guys.
Here is my point to you and to denverian: What does the sexual orientation of that clerk had anything to do or has to do with his attitude towards you?
You identified him as gay and automatically started coming up with certain expectations which you stated "But I do know many gay men who don't like babies and children." What is the clerk was a straight guy or a straight girl giving you the same treatment?
By seeing his gayness, imho, you were being prejudice and presumptious.
May be that young gay fella loves kids and children but it was a long, stressful day, may be he was on his period, who knows?

Again, I am not trying to make you guys mad, or insult you but do not think that I will be deceiving or untrue with my comments just not to hurt anyone's feeling or just to be PC, then you are sadly mistaken. I will call things the way I see them, something my vision could be a bit peculiar and jaded...after all, Mexican friends didn't give me the nickname TurcoLoco aka Crazy Turk for nothing...love me or hate me but my opinion is just my opinion that I am sharing through these words, possibly not the wisest, fanciest choice of words but the ones I used were free of charge so deal with it.

If you read this far, then my hat is off to you, you are just as crazy!

Happy Holidays!

[PeixeGato]

While this conversation doesn't seem to be very Denver specific anymore, I find it fascinating nonetheless. These are the types of discussions that our young people should be having in their Civics classes in school. Unfortunately, so many of them go to incredibly segregated schools these days (we live in an era of incredible "de facto" segregation) that such a discussion would not be possible or very productive.

If more people talked about this racial relations and sensitivity (yes, I said sensitivity) at an earlier age and actually had exposure and interaction with people from different cultures, races, colors, religions, etc, then we'd reduce a lot of the overt and covert racism and "cultural misunderstandings" and we'd feel a lot more comfortable living around and entering into relationships (whether strictly platonic or otherwise) with people who are different from us.

Its interesting that when you watch programming for children under 6 or 7, the casts are always very diverse. But when it comes to shows that are geared for pre-teens and teenagers, the diversity disappears. So as kids are entering their adolescence, they are getting the subliminal message that "different people" simply don't exist. And unfortunately, the subliminal messaging doesn't get much better when you look at programming geared toward adults.

I live in a community with a black population of about 1%. The local high school has about 1,200 students and out of those 1,200 students, there are fewer than 10 black students. While I don't believe the kids will grow up to be racist (this is quite a liberal town and most of the kids are very much socially aware), they are learning at an early age to feel most comfortable and safe when they are in surroundings where most of the people are just like them. Consequently, most will choose to live in areas that are just as segregated and devoid of any diversity. Furthermore, I often hear young parents in town saying things like "this town has everything we could ever want. Its the perfect setting for raising kids". The key is that diversity is obviously not an important factor for them (really not any factor at all). Unfortunately, many people don't make diversity a factor anymore and don't seem to take issue with the fact that the place they've chosen to live is not diverse. Of course, I understand that one person can't make a community diverse and that if a town is already monochromatic, that someone should not choose NOT to live there for that reason alone. My point is that most people no longer seem to even give it a conscious thought. In fact, I think it works in the opposite direction. In other words, many people choose monochromatic communities because they feel comfortable with a setting in which everyone looks like them. This feeling is usually subconscious, but they learn it at an early age.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Thanks for all of the good conversation. Carry on!

Oh, and does anyone know if there is a way to make the reply space bigger? Its frustrating only being able to see 6 lines at a time, lol.

[denverian]

Originally Posted by TurcoLoco

I was talking about the Us as well, I have been here almost 2 decades and believe me when I left Turkey there were no riff on black/white or gay people so I would not be able to comment anyhow. Everything I was saying was simply my opinion according to what you guys have stated in the last several posts.




Again, it is not about jumping to conclusion (by saying that you actually seem to be the one jumping to a conclusion imho), I was not saying you guys are right or wrong. I was only trying to point out another angle, another perspective, not to disagree or agree with anything said or anyone involved. I am not black nor gay but I am a minority regardless and had experienced unpleasant, unwanted hostility or just plain crappy attitudes from various people in this country due to my accent, nationality, etc. so even though I am neither black nor gay, I can related in a certain way and I know I might have misjudged people's reactions or attitudes towards me by assuming that it was because of my accent, nationality, religion, etc.
Of course there are intances that it is obvious that they are being racist/prejudice but I wanted to mention that because of previously experienced racism, a person could overreact or be overly sensitive.

If I see a gay couple or interracial couple, I would never look at them funny because their race or sexual orientation, however, I would smile or look at them with amusement, if the gay couple is acting very gay which is to me, could be funny at times, then whether they are offended or not, (I'd do my best not to or be obvious) I might be looking at them and laughing. I might have done it in the past.
I am not racist or prejudice but I see something funny or odd, I may look at it and even react, I am only human and I will not be ashamed of it.
People can make fun of my accent or make stupid comments, I have been putting up with it the last 18+ years, it never got to me. I hate major attitudes and swearing even from Armenians and Greeks for being Turkish.
Heck, quite a few Turkish people got attacked in the States by the Armenian nutjobs but never a case where a Turkish person attacked them due to racism or prejudice, never in the history, yet I hate people swearing at me, as a person, for some -supposed- crap my ancestors had done decades even centuries ago. I never had any ill intend towards any soul on this planet (I do dislike Martians a bit though), never knew racism till I came here and all of a sudden, racism up to ying-yang, random characters cussing at me and even trying to get physical because of my nationality, etc., what is up with that?
I still am not racism nor prejudice, but now, I hate everyone equally.



...kidding about the last sentence of course.





Hmmm, nope that is not what I was saying, really, again you kinda warped my comments and perhaps misunderstand because you didn't like what you read or thought I disagreed with you guys.
Here is my point to you and to denverian: What does the sexual orientation of that clerk had anything to do or has to do with his attitude towards you?
You identified him as gay and automatically started coming up with certain expectations which you stated "But I do know many gay men who don't like babies and children." What is the clerk was a straight guy or a straight girl giving you the same treatment?
By seeing his gayness, imho, you were being prejudice and presumptious.
May be that young gay fella loves kids and children but it was a long, stressful day, may be he was on his period, who knows?

Again, I am not trying to make you guys mad, or insult you but do not think that I will be deceiving or untrue with my comments just not to hurt anyone's feeling or just to be PC, then you are sadly mistaken. I will call things the way I see them, something my vision could be a bit peculiar and jaded...after all, Mexican friends didn't give me the nickname TurcoLoco aka Crazy Turk for nothing...love me or hate me but my opinion is just my opinion that I am sharing through these words, possibly not the wisest, fanciest choice of words but the ones I used were free of charge so deal with it.

If you read this far, then my hat is off to you, you are just as crazy!

Happy Holidays!

True- his being gay had nothing to do with his attitude toward me. We're a gay couple and we know some gay men who can't stand children, so that probably influenced my thoughts. Before I had kids, I really didn't enjoy being around people with kids either. Now we tend to hang out with straight couples with kids since we have more in common.

When I was stationed in Germany, I used to travel a lot to Greece and Turkey (Adana and Ankara) and I always found it amusing when we would get to the bases and they'd always brief us on local customs, etc. When in Turkey, they told us never to mention Greece, and vice-versa. Two beautiful countries that seem to not get along so well. Maybe it's changed since that was over a decade ago. I found the people to be warm and friendly in both countries. Too bad I never got to see Istanbul though.

[denverian]

Originally Posted by PeixeGato

While this conversation doesn't seem to be very Denver specific anymore, I find it fascinating nonetheless. These are the types of discussions that our young people should be having in their Civics classes in school. Unfortunately, so many of them go to incredibly segregated schools these days (we live in an era of incredible "de facto" segregation) that such a discussion would not be possible or very productive.

If more people talked about this racial relations and sensitivity (yes, I said sensitivity) at an earlier age and actually had exposure and interaction with people from different cultures, races, colors, religions, etc, then we'd reduce a lot of the overt and covert racism and "cultural misunderstandings" and we'd feel a lot more comfortable living around and entering into relationships (whether strictly platonic or otherwise) with people who are different from us.

Its interesting that when you watch programming for children under 6 or 7, the casts are always very diverse. But when it comes to shows that are geared for pre-teens and teenagers, the diversity disappears. So as kids are entering their adolescence, they are getting the subliminal message that "different people" simply don't exist. And unfortunately, the subliminal messaging doesn't get much better when you look at programming geared toward adults.

I live in a community with a black population of about 1%. The local high school has about 1,200 students and out of those 1,200 students, there are fewer than 10 black students. While I don't believe the kids will grow up to be racist (this is quite a liberal town and most of the kids are very much socially aware), they are learning at an early age to feel most comfortable and safe when they are in surroundings where most of the people are just like them. Consequently, most will choose to live in areas that are just as segregated and devoid of any diversity. Furthermore, I often hear young parents in town saying things like "this town has everything we could ever want. Its the perfect setting for raising kids". The key is that diversity is obviously not an important factor for them (really not any factor at all). Unfortunately, many people don't make diversity a factor anymore and don't seem to take issue with the fact that the place they've chosen to live is not diverse. Of course, I understand that one person can't make a community diverse and that if a town is already monochromatic, that someone should not choose NOT to live there for that reason alone. My point is that most people no longer seem to even give it a conscious thought. In fact, I think it works in the opposite direction. In other words, many people choose monochromatic communities because they feel comfortable with a setting in which everyone looks like them. This feeling is usually subconscious, but they learn it at an early age.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Thanks for all of the good conversation. Carry on!

Oh, and does anyone know if there is a way to make the reply space bigger? Its frustrating only being able to see 6 lines at a time, lol.

Sounds like my high school - 99% white. Racism really wasn't an issue growing up because there was basically only one race! My first real exposure to people of other races was when I joined the Air Force, where I became good friends with black and Hispanic people. I've always had a racially diverse group of people around me since then. I think that's really the key - not segregating yourself into an area where only your race lives. It's much easier to pre-judge people you have now relationship with. I think as a child and teen, I looked at a black person and saw a black person. Now I can honestly say that I see the person before the race, no matter what race they are.

[wanttomoveeast]

Denverian: Funny how kids do that to you, you find yourself hanging with others who have 'em. Good to hear you are in a good neighborhood. Exposure really helps people accept others more.

Peixe: Great post. What I found interesting was how you spoke of people who grew up and became comfortable in a white area. You worded it really well. I was trying to get the same thing across but failed miserably (after looking at Turco's post). It's so hard to get your point across on the web. Back to what you said, I think that those people, while happy and comfortable, will do fine as long as they stay there. But give them a vacation in Atlanta and watch them freak!

I took a race class in college and it got really heated. Imagine taking this thread and putting people physically together to duke it out. It's also one of those things where I'm not going to change others' minds and likewise.

Turco: I don't think I warped your statements. I certainly wasn't trying to misconstrue them. What I posted is just my opinion and it wasn't necessarily meant to be directed right at you. I did use some of your statements to try to illustrate my thoughts, I'm sorry that I think you probably thought I was directing them at you. I did disagree with much of your statements, and a lot of the time I thought, if he only knew what it was like to be someone else. Our perceptions are different because of who we are, it's not bad, it's good.

[Scott5280]

I took a class at CU in 1992 with Dr. Manning Marable; class, race,black American history and experience...The class was made up of about four or five black student
athletes, and the rest of the class white...Of course the class touched on Duboise,
Barney Ford ect.. other black industrialists, and scholars, but than dealt deeply into
the subject of institutional racism...mainly government funded enactments and laws
designed to subjugate blacks and others..I had forgot taking that class until
recently, but that class got very heated--so much so you needed a drink afterwards...Maybe would have done that if I hadn't had such a hangover regularely
from the night before...Something else I remember from recent past: my parents and
I were house shopping on Balboa Island a few years back and noticed these small doors on the back of most of the old homes...The broker showing the properties told
us that the small back doors were for the black, hispanic help to come and go from...
a practice in Balboa by statute until the late 50's.. You always think of California as being pretty progressive, but OC. locals have told me that there were Jim Crow type
laws similar to the South in place fifty years ago....Having studied Barney Ford in college, but also read his biography (Black Baron) you gain some insight to the early
plight of early black Colorado pioneers...( side bar) The Breckenridge Historical Society
held a function on race dialogue-- after a play and tribute to Ford several summers ago....The discussion began with the issue of race and Colorado--past and present--
My interest in Barney Ford was more of a selfish one; my great grandfather( former
mayor of Breck.) lived in the historic Barney Ford house and knew Barney well....older
members of my family explained that the first three houses and one business that Barney had started were all burned to the ground....So I guess with all these things I
have mentioned; It's conceivable for black people to have some resentment, even now... I myself because I am egocentric; fail to strictly observe more social issues..
gay rights,racism , as closely as fiscal politics,foreign affairs& trade issues...However
on rare occasion I awake from my slumber to the fact that others do exist and have
problems too..."Barack Obama," ya because of the race thing will do more in four years
towards healing America than we have done in the last thirty ...Thanks for letting me ramble..Bye Bye for now it's time for Jerry Springer...Go USA