Moving to Denver ....?'s on Racism (Arvada: how much, living in, military)

[wanttomoveeast]

Amazingly for once we agree!! As to tv, but more film, have you seen American Pyscho? Perfect example of what's really going on in this society. And these days, what guys/kids are not wearing hoodies and baggy pants??? And it's not tv telling people this necessarily or totally, but also like I said in my other recent post in this thread, it's a fear of the unknown, and ignorance of other cultures, the way we've become isolated from us and have allowed fear to govern our choices. For god's sake, look what we've allowed our country to become all out of fear.

Originally Posted by sportsfangal

so, once you know the 3 black guys aren't a threat, you'd be ok with them following you? or just the 3 white guys?
what if they were wearing business suits?
I think it's so strange how tv and society make it so that a hooded sweatshirt or baggy pants has the power to evoke "gang" mentality or that they are "up to something". but a 3-piece suit doesn't. I wish we could give people's personality and character a chance instead of letting their clothes dictate that "they must be up to something".
I realize tv and rap videos tends to steer certain people a certain way, but why are we letting tv and clothing tell us what other people are about?

whoever decides to wear a hooded sweatshirt is following a certain fashion trend, just like following any other fashion trend, goth or metal, etc. but when blacks are wearing their fashion trend of hoodies and there's a group standing there then "they must be up to something".
Just MHO, I can only speak from my experiences as a bw, so I can say that it has been very positive for me.

[Sassberto]

Originally Posted by wanttomoveeast

And these days, what guys/kids are not wearing hoodies and baggy pants???

I am quite interested in this discussion as:
- I am considering a move to Denver
- I am in a bi-racial marriage with a bi-racial child (white/hispanic)
- I am coming from southern CA which is very diverse

To speak to hoodies and baggy pants: Let's be real here: it is thug attire, plain and simple. That goes for white/black/asian/whatever and they all wear it now. That doesn't mean every kid who wears it is a criminal. But the reality is that the "hip-hop culture" has spawned an entire generation of hoods and wanabee hoods who aren't able to discern that rap music and "hip hop culture" is a product and not reality. Not sure how many of you have listened to *recent* rap lyrics but I can assure you most of today's stuff makes Snoop Dogg look cute in comparison.

The uniform of sagging and hoodies serves a very real purpose to intimidate and diffferentiate. It's not just clothing either. It's boom cars, and pit bulls as they get older. It's spreading like a cancer to the middle class and above, I see kids in BMW's with sideways hats and bling on a daily basis, looking like complete goons. And of course I would be more threatened by a white kid in a hoodie and sagging than a black man in a business suit, almost everyone would. That is because kids who dress like hoods often are hoods. It seems like every robbery, every shooting, every stabbing in my town is committed by a person of any race in a hooded sweatshirt.

I am less concerned about teenagers wearing 'thug' attire than I am about the hordes of grown men in their 20's and even 30's I see all over San Diego who dress this way. There is no way a man dressed like that is getting past a job interview. It's not the clothes that are the problem per se: many of these people are not criminals but have a 'thug' attitude. They blast music in their cars. They litter indiscriminately. They have no qualms about telling a mother, child, or elderly person to "go f*ck themselves" when asked to turn down their blasting stereo. They drink, smoke weed, and fight. I should know because we have 2 houses of them (all white, military and college students) on my block.

This "lifestyle" is part of what I am attempting to get away from by moving to the Midwest and Denver. I am originally from NY and know full well it is a national trend. Even in tony suburban NY many of the white kids are into the gang / thug culture and are out of control. "Gangster culture" is going on 20 years now and I don't see it as a "kid phase" anymore, not with so many grown men walking around with the attire. I absolutely refuse to let my child become part of this culture.

However my longstanding concern (probably misguided) with Denver and the midwest is that it is all-white and racist. However at this point both my wife and I are willing to give up the good things of her Mexican-American heritage and community to keep our son away from the bad. From what I have seen Denver has a thriving Latino working class. Usually this is a good trait as cities with heavy racism often have high poverty and crime in their latino populations (think Escondido CA or South LA).

[David Aguilar]

Hey Sassberto!

I guess ethnically (Hispanic is not a race), I'm just like your child. I grew up in the Inland Empire (Corona/Riverside), so I know from where you are speaking. I moved to Denver in 2007.

The "thug attire" style of dress is in fashion here as well. When I see kids dressed like that, I just shrug my shoulders and move on. It is pretty lame, when a good portion of the young population thinks they are in a gang or something. The hats turned slightly sideways drive me crazy, and I'm not even that old! (25). Even in the late 90's when I was growing up, I think the terrible styles we were into were far more classy than what kids are wearing now. I disagree with you about the new rap music, IMO it's quite tame when compared to rap from the early-mid 90's. I was scared of those guys. The current rappers are singing about getting drunk and getting laid, not as much rapping about shooting each other and the drug trade.

However, Denver is very diverse, but not in the way Southern CA is. We Californians grow up, or become accustomed to a culture where crime is always at the front of our mind, where we often equate crime with race and socio-economics. It's not like that so much here. Here in CO, we don't have the gang/thug culture permeating through like it does in CA; it is mostly confined to certain areas and isn't as easily found in the suburbs. Metro Denver folks of any race, overall are pretty white bread. I don't think you'd see too many adults walking around like they are thugs, I see it mostly in HS age kids around here, and like I said, not in all areas. People here aren't interested at all in what other people are doing, and tend to respect each others space, sometimes a little too much.

I giggle when people equate the Midwest with Denver. I think of Denver as part of the Rocky Mountain Region. I never saw myself as a "Midwesterner".

You don't have to let your kid get absorbed in the 'thug culture'. I was raised in some pretty rough hoods, and didn't get sucked in. I credit my mother with instilling good values in me. Moving here, or anywhere might not immunize your son from "the bad". If kids are attracted to "bad", they will find it, from Maine to San Diego.

Denver is not all-white and racist, not by a long shot. Anybody of any race and/or culture can live here and get along just fine, and even do well.

Some would say that much of the Latino population here also suffers from high poverty and crime, not unlike parts of Southern CA. There is racism here, IMO it is worse than the IE where I grew up, but better than the backwoods.

I deal with cultural/ethnic identity issues myself. I appear as Hispanic to some, and not to others. I don't speak Spanish fluently, but can if I have to or want to. I've decided to just live my life head on and put how others "see" me out of my head, life is too short to worry about if some redneck at a general store along a interstate would approve of my heritage. Yeah, I get the occasional comments/slurs, but IMO they are the ones with the problem, not me.

Good luck and I hope you find what you are looking for for your family. I found it here in Denver and couldn't be happier.

[Sassberto]

Originally Posted by David Aguilar

However, Denver is very diverse, but not in the way Southern CA is. We Californians grow up, or become accustomed to a culture where crime is always at the front of our mind, where we often equate crime with race and socio-economics. It's not like that so much here. Here in CO, we don't have the gang/thug culture permeating through like it does in CA; it is mostly confined to certain areas and isn't as easily found in the suburbs. Metro Denver folks of any race, overall are pretty white bread. I don't think you'd see too many adults walking around like they are thugs, I see it mostly in HS age kids around here, and like I said, not in all areas.

This is exactly the kind of info I was looking for, thanks for the reply.

In SoCal the gang culture is everywhere.... it is mainstream. Yesterday at the vons near my house I saw a kid with a jacket on that was covered in a print of handguns, brass knuckles, and knives. He was about 23, white, and had a girlfriend who appeared to be a decent girl. Even good kids in good neighborhoods are emulating it.

It sounds to me like while the bad element is in Denver, it has not permeated through the culture the way it has in SoCal. I don't pretend that moving to Denver will isolate me from it - but that I can actually afford a neighborhood in Denver where it is not as prevalent. Can't do that in San Diego alas.

[subsound]

Originally Posted by Sassberto

t's not the clothes that are the problem per se: many of these people are not criminals but have a 'thug' attitude. They blast music in their cars. They litter indiscriminately. They have no qualms about telling a mother, child, or elderly person to "go f*ck themselves" when asked to turn down their blasting stereo. They drink, smoke weed, and fight. I should know because we have 2 houses of them (all white, military and college students) on my block.

That attitude drives me nuts, I agree completely. I can't understand the appeal. I am hoping people will look back at it like disco, with a hangover and "what was I thinking?". I think it's all about lack of self control and greed in my honest opinion.

Originally Posted by Sassberto

However my longstanding concern (probably misguided) with Denver and the midwest is that it is all-white and racist.

Please understand I have no anger and don't take it as an insult in the least, nor am I trying to with my statements....It's not that some people haven't really done their best to forward such a view (*glares at Focus on the Family*) and the same with past negligence.

I try and look at the world without care of what a person is born with and do my best to not be negligent in my views, but it's hard to be treated badly for exactly what I am supposedly guilty of (I.E. being racist for my race, sexist for my gender)

I think you'll find a vast majority of people are not in the Midwest. I think it's not different in any place (city, region, and country) that a small, vocal, and insane minority of the population that is.

[fritzdude]

Originally Posted by wanttomoveeast

I'm not bashing you, but sort of using you as an example. Sorry. Your post is what I think is part of the root problem between races in the U.S. First, you mention blacks and crime rates. Rates where? And where's your numbers to back up that statement? Funny, but the pop. in many jails is primarily hispanic and white. Depending on the area of course. And when you say you "are more aware" of blacks in hoodies and baggy pants... sheesh, I suppose I could say the same of whites. But really, it shows me a deep-seated fear (historically brought on?) and an ignorance to another societal culture. That's like being afraid of men wearing trench coats or people wearing turbans. Kind of silly, don't you think? Honestly, when I'm walking alone in a parking lot, I don't care if you are Mr. Suited Up, I'm pretty "aware" of my surroundings. Because like it or not, the people committing some of the most atrocious hideous crimes are whites.

No worries - I don't feel you're bashing me, but it's apparent that we look at the situation from different perspectives. But seriously, I'm curious how you can debate the high propensity of crime committed in black communities?
Just look at the criminal offender status on the Bureau of Justice Statistics:
Bureau of Justice Statistics Criminal Offenders Statistics
or
http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/64
or
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21001543/

Demographics

The prevalence of imprisonment in 2001 was higher for
-- black males (16.6%) and Hispanic males (7.7%) than for white males (2.6%)
-- black females (1.7%) and Hispanic females (0.7%) than white females (0.3%)
--More than 6 in 10 persons in local jails in 2002 were racial or ethnic minorities, unchanged from 1996.
--An estimated 40% were black; 19%, Hispanic, 1% American Indian; 1% Asian; and 3% of more than one race/ethnicity.

And I'm not trying to flip this argument and bash you, seriously...you asked for rates and I provided some.. but the truth is that real problems need frank and honest discussions for issues to be addressed. What are the socio-economic/cultural forces that can change this? Because everyone should want it to change. Call it the elephant in the room: it's a known fact that a black kid growing up has a higher probability of dying due to violence or going to jail rather than going to college, which is a sad statistic. And contrary to what you say, this is not a problem between the races because most crime is committed within the same racial group. But, the truth is, this "deep-seated fear" is not just due to ignorance, it's also due to statistics. Hopefully, though, a person can understand the dilemna without trying to avoid it. That being said, I choose to participate and learn from other "societal cultures" rather than being ignorant toward it.

But, I agree with you, there are whites (and people of all races) that commit horrible crimes every day as well. Whether it's the "most atrocious" - well - that's a loaded accusation that can easly inflame the discussion.. so, no comment from me. Regardless, I have no intention of turning this into a race vs race comparison (since these discussions can quickly turn into mudslinging contests), but just wanted to offer my perspective with as much tact, and respect, as possible. If people start name-calling, I will stop posting. For the most part, I'm optimstic for improved race relations, though. People are intermingling more often (due to work, school, sports, etc..) and it's been proven that the more people integrate, the less misguided they are about each other. Furthermore, outright racism is on the decline, thankfully, and the fact this country can vote for a black president is a good signs of better days ahead.

To end this post on a relative point, I will say that Denver encounters fewer of the problems associated with other big cities and that's something we can all be proud of. And for anyone moving here from out of State - Denver is one of the safest "big cities" that you're going to find.

[wanttomoveeast]

Fritz: I do agree with you that we have opposing viewpoints, probably due to our upbringing, our age, our sex and our race.

I did ask for numbers, because I do not like statistics being thrown out without being backed up. I remain skeptical about crime and race, but am not going to continue arguing because I'm tired and really, we aren't going to convince the other one.

"Contrary to what you say, this is not a problem between the races because most crime is committed within the same racial group." I disagree and wasn't trying to state this. What I meant to get across is that the crime, perceptions and social problems in this country very much surround the races. I agree it needs to change.

I also do not agree that people carry a deep seated fear because of statistics, I do agree it's ignorance. This I speak from personal experience. As for truth, well, I don't think you carry it. Truth to me is: Your perception, mine, and somewhere in between lies the truth. Most persons are not walking around with the conscious thought that their fear is deep-rooted and they are ignorant and/or they know the statistics. I doubt most think about it (whites anyway).

I take back my statement about most atrocious crimes and whites, you are right. I felt defensive in that as usual blacks are blamed for every wrong in this world. As far as racism being on the decline, just try being black or Indian or Asian or whatever other than white for just one day. I dare you. Then we'll hear what you think.

And finally, I do agree that Denver has relatively small problems with racism. But let's face it, racism is all around this country. (oh and big city? hahahahaha - oh yeah you have it in quotes)

[TurcoLoco]

Perhaps I should start a new poll asking people which one of the following would be the most concerning?

You are walking alone at night and you noticed that you were being followed. Which one of the following group be most horrifying for you (no need to be PC)?

a) 3 White high school kids wearing long black trench coats.

b) 3 black male wearing baggies pants and hoodies.

c) 3 Middle Eastern looking dudes with turbans with Tic-Tac sounds coming from their dufflebags.

d) All of the above.

e) none of the above.

[fritzdude]

Originally Posted by wanttomoveeast

Fritz: I do agree with you that we have opposing viewpoints, probably due to our upbringing, our age, our sex and our race.

Agreed - we may look at issues differently, but we probably have more things in common than most would think. I'm making the assumption that we're both respectable citizens and good people - that's half the battle. If more did the same, the country would be better off.

I did ask for numbers, because I do not like statistics being thrown out without being backed up. I remain skeptical about crime and race, but am not going to continue arguing because I'm tired and really, we aren't going to convince the other one.

I will say that statistics can also be misleading, so a person should be careful throwing these around as well. For example, it's been proven that a person of color stands a higher percentage of getting incarcerated due to a drug charge (and receiving a harsher sentence) than a similar offense by a white person. I fully agree that it isn't fair and ultimately skews the statistics.


"Contrary to what you say, this is not a problem between the races because most crime is committed within the same racial group." I disagree and wasn't trying to state this. What I meant to get across is that the crime, perceptions and social problems in this country very much surround the races. I agree it needs to change.

I'm with ya..

I also do not agree that people carry a deep seated fear because of statistics, I do agree it's ignorance. This I speak from personal experience. As for truth, well, I don't think you carry it. Truth to me is: Your perception, mine, and somewhere in between lies the truth. Most persons are not walking around with the conscious thought that their fear is deep-rooted and they are ignorant and/or they know the statistics. I doubt most think about it (whites anyway).

ok. I would never say that I carry the truth and hope that I don't come across that way. We all just have opinions and I've been known to be wrong. Just ask my gf.

I take back my statement about most atrocious crimes and whites, you are right. I felt defensive in that as usual blacks are blamed for every wrong in this world. As far as racism being on the decline, just try being black or Indian or Asian or whatever other than white for just one day. I dare you. Then we'll hear what you think.

Well - the closest I've come is living in foriegn countries where I'm the minority. That, in itself, wasn't easy, but it probably still doesn't compare to being a minority in this country; I'll give you that. Truth is, being the only white person in a room full of color is eye-opening in itself. However, I will never say that I "understand" where another person is coming from, particularly someone of a different racial group, because... well... that would be patronizing. On a lighter note, I do listen to Keb Mo and have been working on my Iversen cross-over for the last 10 years - so you can't say I'm not trying..

And finally, I do agree that Denver has relatively small problems with racism. But let's face it, racism is all around this country. (oh and big city? hahahahaha - oh yeah you have it in quotes)

Agreed. Racism is never going to go away. Neither is stupidity, ignorance, sexism, homophobia, or people that wear crocs out in public. We just have to work to make it less prevalent in society.

cya..

[wanttomoveeast]

Fritz:

I do think we have a lot in common; mainly because I see you can type coherently and are probably educated, as am I.

Let me clarify one thing: What I meant by backing up statements is just that, not necessarily numbers, but let's say someone says this amount of _______... then I want backup. Same as any statement. So let's just say I believe that no statement should go unfounded. People should be able to back up their statements instead of just blurting out whatever, with zero thought process. With that said, I studied statistics for 2 years and I have a good knowledge of where their faults lay. They are just numbers.

I pointed out the truth statement because you typed: "The truth is...". Sorry, I'm anal. Living in another country is definitely eye opening and every time I come back to this country I think phew, I'm home. I also gain an entirely different perspective of our day to day activities. It is different though than being a minority in the U.S. I have a long standing belief that the U.S. has its own unique problem with race given its history.