NYC transplant (Denver, Craig: work, health, campus)

[Rawlings]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

Ok, buckle your seatbelt... here I jump in to the doghouse again... Seriously, I have no intention of starting a flame war... especially after yesterday when we seemed to settle our differences. But just one point:

Where do you think all the people that go to events downtown, shop at Cherry Creek, go to the Art Museum, or the Denver Public Library, jog at Washington Park, or go to a Broncos game all live? I'm sure a lot of those people live nearby in central Denver... but as you correctly mentioned, Denver is only about 1/5 of the entire metro area. Most people do not want to live 24/7 in a dense, urban, high-priced neighborhood. They want a quiet, nice house in the suburbs with better school districts. But a lot of people who live in the suburbs do like to head into the central city from time to time to take advantage of these activities and amenities.

No this isn't the same experience as NYC (although even there, most people who work in Manhattan don't live there, but commute). Compared to the NYC's and Chicago's of the world, Denver is city-lite. But a little culture never killed anybody... What Denver has so far is pretty good, and is getting better all the time. Denver is at least 15 years ahead of Phoenix, for example, when it comes to these cultural and recreational amenities. The art museum for example (and btw, I hate the new design, it is an eyesore--- but just as an example) is funded by a special tax collected from the entire metro area, not just the city of Denver. It's sure nice to have a fun city nearby, even if you don't live there.

I'd rather have jobs than a funhouse. If Denver seems full of people it's because of all the suburbanites coming downtown to work. Most people--especially families--don't go downtown much.

I don't think New York or Chicago are anything worth emulating. If Denver tries to be NY or Chicago-lite they will fail every time and make the lives of the citizens worse while doing so. Denver needs to find it's own nitche--and so far it has. By becoming a 'family city' and a 'jobs city' Denver has done quite well for itself. The biggest mistake is to follow the whims of the above urban poster who wants the whole metro area to revolve around his cosmopolitan enclave. What's so great about culture? I mean, how many families do you know that actually go to the art museum? The only art these families know is their kids' scribblings. The push for culture is really the push for a liberal agenda--in education, in transit, and in a whole host of other things.

I voted for that metro arts tax because it included libraries, museums, and zoos--all close to my heart. Those are kid-friendly things--not some damn neufangled POS art museum. Give me playgrounds and churches--not clubs and art museums. And I know that I speak for the vast majority of folks in the metro area on that one.

If so and so wants to live close to DU and pretend like the whole metro area is the thing--great. What do I care? But when they start pushing taxes and a cultural agenda that eats into my wallet and my family's best interest--then I get upset. I want these hipsters to keep the hell out of my business.

[19Caroline72]

I'm really beginning to suspect that Rawlings has some kind of an agenda. He seems to enjoy portraying Denver is some kind of kind of a backwards, conservative city full of Bush voting, gun waving republicans. I'm simply not buying it because my experience has been quite different. Denver is becoming more vibrant and cosmopolitan all the time. I don't understand why that's such a bad thing.

I remember the the first time I came to Denver with my father on a business trip. It was in July 1997 and we went to a Rockies game. I remember that the area around Coors Field was run down, boarded up and shady. Downtown was a ghost town at night. Night life was non existant. Nowadays, downtown is bustling late into the night (primarily on the weekends). People are moving back into the city because of the major gentrification that is occuring. Everywhere you look, the once abandoned warehouses are being converted to stylish, hip apartments, condos and retail/restaurant facilities. Denver now has the second largest performing arts center in the country after NYC. Denver should be proud of the progress that it has made over the past 10 or so years. Denver is proud of its heritage, but it's not stuck in the past. I am excited to see what the city will be like in another 10 years.

[Rawlings]

For all that changes--so much more remains the same. Sure, Lodo's a lot nicer than it was, say, 15 years ago. Lofts are going up, people are moving in, and the area is indeed gentrifying. But that's a small part of a very big city. The dynamics and changes in this city are so much bigger than a little ol' warehouse district's revitalization. Nobody even goes to Rockies games anymore! In a city of 2.5 million you're taking one arts center and one, small downtown district and pretending like it portends giants things to come for Denver.

If you want the action, the vibrant living, the future--look outside Denver city limits. If you think Denver is remotely cosmopolitan take a trip sometime to suppose podunks like St. Louis or Cleveland. I'm a native and my thinking is that Denver is the center of the universe. Then I decided to travel. Whether it was Houston or Cleveland--two supposed vortexes of cultural hell--they seemed so much more 'with it' than Denver.

The big joke is that Denver is trying to hard to shed its cowtown image that it simply reenforces that very image! When you put Denver up against Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Houston, Miami, Chicago, Boston, and on and on it goes--Denver is still a modest midwestern city with a western flair. Denverites love to go on and on about our supposed diversity and cosmopolitan culture. What kind of a bubble are you living in? Have you ever been outside the state? The one thing most people who move here from the coasts say that bothers them is the blandness--the middle American-ness of Denver.

But I'm saying, whoa hoss! That's not such a bad thing after all. I don't want a fancy-pants hip-zone where everybody's out sipping whine before the opera. Yuck! I just want a nice place to raise my family and make a living. That's what's made Denver great and it's what will keep us great in the future.

San Fran and New York are city's on major decline. The old model of dense, urban, elite cities is failing. Denver's pro-growth, pro-family model is the city of the future. Get aboard or get off this bandwagon 'cause it's gonna be getting full soon enough.

Mike Littwin--no man of the right--once noted how if New York is the city that never sleeps, Denver is the city that needs a good eight hours. That's every bit as true today as it was when I was growing up. Things have changed. But this cultural mecca you're dreaming of simply doesn't exist. And that's not a bad thing.

[dj32]

Rawlings, the only point I was trying to make to the original poster (and thank you too Caroline72) is that Denver can be a FUN, urban place coming from NYC.

And I think people in San Fran and NYC would be to differ that they are cities on a "major decline"

[BarryK123]

Rawlings - when were you last in NYC?

It was declining 20 years ago, but Rudy Guiliani sure turned it around, bigtime!

[19Caroline72]

Originally Posted by Rawlings

The big joke is that Denver is trying to hard to shed its cowtown image that it simply reenforces that very image! When you put Denver up against Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Houston, Miami, Chicago, Boston, and on and on it goes--Denver is still a modest midwestern city with a western flair. Denverites love to go on and on about our supposed diversity and cosmopolitan culture. What kind of a bubble are you living in? Have you ever been outside the state? The one thing most people who move here from the coasts say that bothers them is the blandness--the middle American-ness of Denver.

Yes, I have been outside of Colorado. As a matter of fact, I'm from Chicago. I'm not stuck in a bubble, I'm well traveled and just happen to think that Denver has alot going for it. I'm just saying that Denver has alot going for it and it's on it's way up in the world, but you have to get out of Highlands Ranch every once in a while to experience it.

[DenCoGuy]

Rawlings, maybe you should move to Colorado Springs. Maybe there you will find this evangelical paradise that you seem to think the entire state is. I'm sure you'll find lots of like minded conservatives down there.

[Rawlings]

Originally Posted by DenCoGuy

Rawlings, maybe you should move to Colorado Springs. Maybe there you will find this evangelical paradise that you seem to think the entire state is. I'm sure you'll find lots of like minded conservatives down there.

Actually, I find Denver to be just a larger version of the Springs.

Anyway, New York is a great city and Rudy did a fine job turning the town around. Chicago is also a fine city. My point is only that Denver--of all places--cannot try to be the next Chicago or New York. Those are great cities because of their history, their heritage, culture, and unique place in American life. If Denver is gonna be a great city it's gonna do so by being Denver, not NYC-lite.

Denver has always been that frontier town where everyone can come to and succeed. You can bring your family here, finda job, and thrive. That's what makes Denver great and it's what will bring greater things to Denver in the future. If you're into opera and art--you may be a minority here--but that's totally fine with me. Good for you. Have a little culture in your life. In fact, I think it's great that Denver's trying to culture iteself. But there is an obsession with making Denver what it was never meant to be. There's a charm in being the cowtown of old. If you try to make a city on culture and diverity we will always be Chicago-lite or NYC-lite or LA-lite. On the other hand, if you make ourselves singular and unique in our embrace of family life and economic freedom, we will be great for our own sake--not for how we measure up to Chicago.

Too many people in this town are trying to make us one of the joneses. People don't move here to be Chicago--they move to Denver for Denver's sake. But when they get here they start to miss the culture, liberalism, diversity of their hometown and they try to recreate it here.

Don't change our city. Leave it alone and embrace Denver for what Denver's all about.

[Mike from back east]

We've gotten way off topic here...

Let's get back on topic. Here is morningbell's original posting:
"Hi all - I'll be starting grad school at University of Denver in September. I've been living in NYC for the past 6 years and am originally from Chicago. While excited about the move, Denver is by far the smallest city I have ever moved to. Any words of wisdom about the transition? I'm planning on buying a car- is it necessary to have one even though I'll be living near campus? My car has been the subway since moving to NYC. What is the public transportation situation in Denver like? (And how many of you laughed at that question?!)"

Replies need to stick to addressing specific issues for morningbell.

thank you

[vwjetta1]

moderator - thanks for getting this back on track.

This post caught my eye because 8 months ago, I moved here from New York City. I am a New Yorker at heart - didn't even know how to drive when I got here. It was a hard move - a huge transition - but really healthy for me. Here is what I've learned and what I would like to pass on......

Transportation: I use the bus system as much as possible, but it requires planning and time. While I would encourage anyone to use it, I also would have to say, honestly, that you'll be happier with a car, if for no other reason than to get out to the mountains every now and then. You also may want to get a bike! This is a very bike-friendly city.

Culture: The cultural insititutions in Denver, while not of the stature of a major east-coast city, are actually doing very well financially, in their own humble way. Things are happening here - it just takes time and it's still a young city, culturally. However, the effort and interest - and sheer number of people moving here - lay a great foundation for improvements in this respect.

Living: I don't know the area around DU too well, but it seems pretty car-centered. If you don't mind being further from campus, Capitol Hill, particularly the area around Cheesman Park, is a great place to live - you can walk to grocery stores, laundromats, parks, coffee shops, and it has a real neighborhood feel. If you really use your imagination, it can sometimes almost feel a little bit like Brooklyn.

Recreation: You'll be happiest here not focusing on the things that you enjoyed doing in NYC, but appreciating the things that are unique to Colorado. The club and dining scene will never live up to that of New York, so it's best not to compare. Instead, take advantage of the great outdoor activities - you should really be able to appreciate that after living in a city.

The biggest mistake I made when I first came here was to deny the fact that I would have to change my lifestyle. But once I accepted that, I had a much better time. I'm moving on now - back to another major east coast city. It sounds like you too will be here temporarily - so just enjoy it. You may never live in another place as relaxed and sunny as this - so take advantage of the healthy lifestyle.