U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Colorado > Denver
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 07-15-2009, 02:50 PM
 
32 posts, read 87,255 times
Reputation: 27

Advertisements

Perhaps the most interesting (or troubling) thing I encountered on a recent trip to Denver were the long distances and barriers to peds accessing LRT stations in SW Denver. That said, I understand the RTD has major plans for redev't around station areas and that new Western US LRT lines most easily find ROW's along highways and/or existing freight corridors. Obviously though, people don't like to live next to hwy's, freight lines, or ind'l areas thus making for long (and inconvenient) travel distances for people walking to these stations.

The most egregiuos of this situation seemed to be the station at I-25 and Broadway. Currently, there exists a giant (and seemingly defunct) heavy ind'l plant there which is also bordered by the hwy and a br. These seriuos rifts in the ped. fabric make it very diff. to conveniently get to the station.

Living in Philly (and I'm sure this will bring opinions) I am blessed with a "mature" transit system extending into all regions of the metro area with stations surrounded by "main streets" (Littleton seems to accomplish this). Say what you will about the quality of SEPTA service and the Philly region, but after visiting denver, I can I understand why ridership is so low along these LRT routes comparitive to eastern US transit systems.

OK, now throw your tomotoes

tdm
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-15-2009, 04:38 PM
 
Location: Just south of Denver since 1989
10,937 posts, read 29,505,170 times
Reputation: 7167
The old Gates Rubber factory is in redevelopment.

A lot of us won't know your abbreviations like LRT, ROW, ped., etc... mean unless you spell them out at least one (1) time.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-15-2009, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Golden, CO
2,181 posts, read 5,660,131 times
Reputation: 2073
Ew, Philly. I can say this because I'm a PA native.

I think underground tunnels and transit systems like the East Coast are very cost-prohibitive in today's world. Building along existing ROW keeps costs down. With that said, RTD's light rail could use improvement, but it's not even fully built out yet. Some of the other lines, like the West line and the Gold line, will serve more residential areas and be more walkable than some of the current stations are.

Also, the I-25 and Broadway station is more of a transfer point to transfer between rail lines and bus. I don't think many people live close enough to it to want to walk to it, especially when you can catch the 0 and 0L busses right on Broadway, both of which do stop at the I-25 and Broadway station, and both of which allow transfers to light rail.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-16-2009, 12:34 AM
 
2,755 posts, read 11,793,022 times
Reputation: 1464
Yes, we'd all love to have an underground transit system like Philly or NY or Washington. These cities were fortunate to have built their transit infrastructure when such things were feasible. But, unfortunately subway construction costs are such that that's never going to happen again -- not in Denver certainly, and not anywhere in the U.S. I remember daydreaming about a Denver subway only to find that building a new heavy-rail subway in today's dollars costs somewhere around $10 Billion per mile. That's not going to happen anywhere, except for possibly short line extensions in NY.

I think the most recently built subway in the United States is the Washington Metro. It's still being expanded, of course, but only at-grade -- I guarantee there will be no more subway lines or stations ever built on the Washington Metro. And Washington D.C. has the advantage of the Federal Government and its unlimited dole of money to spend -- no other city in America has that. So Washington will certainly be the last subway ever constructed in the United States.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-16-2009, 10:04 AM
 
20,957 posts, read 39,347,807 times
Reputation: 19282
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfox View Post
Yes, we'd all love to have an underground transit system like Philly or NY or Washington. These cities were fortunate to have built their transit infrastructure when such things were feasible. But, unfortunately subway construction costs are such that that's never going to happen again -- not in Denver certainly, and not anywhere in the U.S. I remember daydreaming about a Denver subway only to find that building a new heavy-rail subway in today's dollars costs somewhere around $10 Billion per mile. That's not going to happen anywhere, except for possibly short line extensions in NY.

I think the most recently built subway in the United States is the Washington Metro. It's still being expanded, of course, but only at-grade -- I guarantee there will be no more subway lines or stations ever built on the Washington Metro. And Washington D.C. has the advantage of the Federal Government and its unlimited dole of money to spend -- no other city in America has that. So Washington will certainly be the last subway ever constructed in the United States.
I'd agree with the bolded portion if it said "underground." Unless there's been a recent change, they will build above-ground to Dulles Airport, and along the way it will hit Tyson's Corner, Reston, and Herndon. If I had my way, it would go out to Leesburg, VA too.
__________________
- Please follow our TOS.
- Any Questions about City-Data? See the FAQ list.
- Want some detailed instructions on using the site? See The Guide for plain english explanation.
- Realtors are welcome here but do see our Realtor Advice to avoid infractions.
- Thank you and enjoy City-Data.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-16-2009, 11:24 AM
 
Location: western Centennial, CO
656 posts, read 1,815,170 times
Reputation: 309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
I'd agree with the bolded portion if it said "underground." Unless there's been a recent change, they will build above-ground to Dulles Airport, and along the way it will hit Tyson's Corner, Reston, and Herndon. If I had my way, it would go out to Leesburg, VA too.
$20 billion per mile is absolutely huge cost! How can it cost that much?

Anyways, subway implies underground. If it's above-ground it would be called something else to reflect what type of cars/tracks/etc that they're using.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-16-2009, 11:48 AM
 
20,957 posts, read 39,347,807 times
Reputation: 19282
Quote:
Originally Posted by chilicheesefries View Post
$20 billion per mile is absolutely huge cost! How can it cost that much?

Anyways, subway implies underground. If it's above-ground it would be called something else to reflect what type of cars/tracks/etc that they're using.
Not sure if the $10B/mile quoted by tfox is accurate or a guessestimate, but above ground is way cheaper, especially if they use parts of the old W&OD RR ROW that is now a bicycle path. Agree fully that tunneling under existing major cities is insanely costly. Cheaper to buy a corridor of old buildings, tear them down and build a new corridor above ground, but that is easy to say and hard to do, even with today's easier 'eminent domain' processes.

The website for the project indicates the 23-mile line will cost $2.6B, or $113M/mile.

I lived there 30 years, it is desperately needed.
__________________
- Please follow our TOS.
- Any Questions about City-Data? See the FAQ list.
- Want some detailed instructions on using the site? See The Guide for plain english explanation.
- Realtors are welcome here but do see our Realtor Advice to avoid infractions.
- Thank you and enjoy City-Data.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-16-2009, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Denver--->Atlanta--->DC
573 posts, read 2,290,950 times
Reputation: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfox View Post
I think the most recently built subway in the United States is the Washington Metro. It's still being expanded, of course, but only at-grade -- I guarantee there will be no more subway lines or stations ever built on the Washington Metro. And Washington D.C. has the advantage of the Federal Government and its unlimited dole of money to spend -- no other city in America has that. So Washington will certainly be the last subway ever constructed in the United States.
Not true. There's a brand new line--the silver line--slated for completion in 2012. Construction has already started. While part of it while be above-ground, the part directly under DC in the most dense portions of the city will have to underground.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-17-2009, 08:27 AM
 
32 posts, read 87,255 times
Reputation: 27
There's an underground portion planned for LRT (light rail transit) in the capitol hill section of seattle. At 3.16 miles long and a budget of 1.9 B (cost overruns not consiered) creates roughly $60M/mi. est. cost. Of course, this number changes based on the cost of ROW (right-of-way) aquisition, labor costs and geographic/infrastructure factors. That said $60M/mi is a far cry from the $10B/mi quoted above. One also must consider the cost differences in constructing heavy vs light rail (most eastern subs (subways) are a heavy guage rail and western US subs constructed as LRT).

Personally, I see nothing wrong with constructing at-grade LRT. Eastern cities (particularly Philly where I live) have issues with security and cleanliness of underground stations. More people find At-grade stations more pleasant and safe than thier underground counterparts. Even with the knowledge that at-grade LRT corridors are often slower than subs (particularly in CBD's (Central Business Districts), I would advocate for them anyday. As the old saying goes, "Out of sight - Out of Mind".

In Denver's case, I look forward to seeing how these large parcel's of Post-Industrial lands develop. With the things I was seeing around Union Station, I have no doubt they will turn into spectalar yuppie developments

tdm

Last edited by thedrizzlemonster; 07-17-2009 at 08:41 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-17-2009, 09:02 AM
 
Location: western Centennial, CO
656 posts, read 1,815,170 times
Reputation: 309
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedrizzlemonster View Post
There's an underground portion planned for LRT (light rail transit) in the capitol hill section of seattle. At 3.16 miles long and a budget of 1.9 B (cost overruns not consiered) creates roughly $60M/mi. est. cost. Of course, this number changes based on the cost of ROW (right-of-way) aquisition, labor costs and geographic/infrastructure factors. That said $60M/mi is a far cry from the $10B/mi quoted above. One also must consider the cost differences in constructing heavy vs light rail (most eastern subs (subways) are a heavy guage rail and western US subs constructed as LRT).
I think you mean $600M/mi.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Colorado > Denver
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top