Sprawl in Denver Metro Area (Aurora, Westminster: sale, condo, house)

[Bradburn1]

Agreed 120th is an issue. There's been some talk of building a pedestrian bridge but with the economy in the crapper I think that's unlikely. They did put in a nice new light with good crosswalks at the street just to the east of where the Wal-Mart will be and I feel safe crossing there though.

I've been to Arista, it's sadly very incomplete. There's a restaurant there I like a lot called Proto's Pizza (def fluff, they are expensive in my opinion LOL). They were originally going to get a huge number of stores and residences, they have some nice apartments and a few nice buildings including a hotel called Aloft which will soon have a VERY fluff restaurant opening--a Kevin Taylor steak place (couldn't be more fluff than that LOL). They were going to get a Fry's Electronics which is like geek heaven--computer parts cheap build your own stuff--but when the economy tanked so did that idea (I cried )

[livecontent]

Originally Posted by Bradburn1

Agreed 120th is an issue. There's been some talk of building a pedestrian bridge but with the economy in the crapper I think that's unlikely. They did put in a nice new light with good crosswalks at the street just to the east of where the Wal-Mart will be and I feel safe crossing there though.

I've been to Arista, it's sadly very incomplete. There's a restaurant there I like a lot called Proto's Pizza (def fluff, they are expensive in my opinion LOL). They were originally going to get a huge number of stores and residences, they have some nice apartments and a few nice buildings including a hotel called Aloft which will soon have a VERY fluff restaurant opening--a Kevin Taylor steak place (couldn't be more fluff than that LOL). They were going to get a Fry's Electronics which is like geek heaven--computer parts cheap build your own stuff--but when the economy tanked so did that idea (I cried )

Thanks for the information. No Fry's ahhhhhhhhh--I must admit I do have my Fluff Fantasies.

I do not like to see these developments not complete. I saw similar issues in metro NYC in the 1970s and it not pretty. So, I would anything to fill these places--even fluff.

[steveindenver]

I would love to have a Fry's in Denver. I must have spent 3 hours in one last week drooling and picking up stuff I don't really need.

RadioShack had a trial store concept that died a few years back that was very similar to Fry's -- the one I recall was near Colorado and I-25. As it stands Denver has very few places where you can go out and impluse buy a bread board or good soldering station and none of them offer good deals.

[Katiana]

Gosh, it hasn't been much more than 48 hours since my last post here and this thread has really gone on! Frankly, I enjoy these semi-intellectual discussions more than, "Who has the best pizza?"-type threads.

I have discussed with some people in other threads just what the definintion of "New Urbanism" is. I contend there to seems to be no specific definition. Others have countered with links to THE definition.

My concept of what NU is supposed to be, and what some on this board (not just Colorado) say it is, is the definition that livecontent provided. It's supposed to replicate the "Old Urbanism", but w/o the supposed flaws. So when I say "all inclusive", I mean, have the kind of shops you'd have found in the downtown of a decently-sized city.

Like livecontent, I, too have some experience with "Old Urbanism", in this case a factory town located about 30 miles from Pittsburgh. Our downtown did include a grocery store (aptly named "City Market" and not part of the chain). There were also a couple of supermarkets within walking distance of many residences, though not located in the "downtown" area. We had a couple of dept stores, something you don't see in most "New Urban" areas though Northfield at Stapelton does have a JC Penney's.

The issue I disagree with is :

a gallery, a gift store/art lessons place, a small sandwich shop, and a photographer.

This sounds like what you find in a resort town, and this is what you find in a lot of New Urbanism places, due to the high rents.

Belmar has a lot of stores you can find at a standard mall, plus a Whole Foods, but nary a dept store in the lot. I have to say, I really don't see Belmar as so much New Urbanism as the rest.

[livecontent]

The store that I really miss is the "5 and Dime". or "5 and 10 cent stores" It would be the Woolworth's, W.T. Grants, Ben Franklin, Kresge's (the founder, and the K in K-mart) or Neisner's, where I grew up. The best one in Downtown Denver---Woolworth's, on 16th Street. I understand it was the largest Woolworth's. Working downtown, you had all those places in one store to eat:

Line cafeteria in the basement with the uniformed matrons.
Curved lunch counter on the main floor.
Sit down coffee shop on the main floor, on the 15th. St. side
Pizza stand and a hot dog stand, just as you entered the inside from 16th St.
Candy Counters with every type, dominated the main floor.

Upstairs had variety of products on those segmented display tables; Floors Creaked, Downstairs had Notions (bet you have not heard that word for a long time), clothing, hardware, houseware, and it had the smell of mothballs, which they sold.

Now that was the best store downtown. Good Prices and a place to roam buy and eat at lunch hour. I always found some little cheap product. I would rotate eating at the the different outlets. Oh, and the bag of assorted candies that I bought for my desk for visitors, but I really ate them all, myself. Do any of you people remember???

Yes, the "5 and Dime", a store where a child can go and enjoy with a little money--the candy whistle pop, little toys, jewelry... A lunch counter where one can get that sliced turkey on bread with that gluey gravy; coffee in a real heavy mug; ice cream soda; the dried stale apple pie, tempting you under the glass; the shapely uniformed waitresses....ah, ah, ah, now that is the Real Urban experience..... Remember????

Livecontent

[movementarian]

New-urbanism, New-suburbanism, whatever...
You can hardly find a department store in Boulder county anymore - Macy's at 29th street. There has been incredible consolidation of department stores recently and they seem to be going the way of the dodo bird. Substitutes have popped up like Target, Kohls, and Walmart.

From what I understand, Forest City is Stapleton's master developer.
About Stapleton | A Sustainable Community Near Downtown Denver

2001
In the spring, Forest City purchased the first Stapleton land from the City and began construction of streets and utilities. By fall, construction began on the Visitor Center, model homes and the Quebec Square Regional Retail Center.

So Forest City purchases old airport property - including Quebec Square area for a retail center. Walmart is there and even back's up to "Tarmac Street" - so you know its on the airport site. If you want to lease space in Quebec Square, you need to contact Forest City. This is the same company that are master planners for the Stapleton residential community.

http://www.forestcity.net/properties...ail-center.asp

As they company states:

Quebec Square Regional Retail Center is part of Stapleton, a mixed use property.

So like it or not, Stapleton does have shopping directly in it - you can get almost anything you need from that one store. It is directly in that New Urban community and it is not fluff. And people of Stapleton, you have a Walmart in your neighborhood.

I think its a little cold to point out that those small independent stores make that other one sound like a resort town. If I'm not mistaken, I think there is a Big Lots over there. I have yet to see that in Aspen or Breckenridge. If it was T-shirt shops and candy stores, yeah, I'd see the similarity.

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by livecontent

ah, ah, ah, now that is the Real Urban experience..... Remember????

Livecontent

Before I edited my post about the downtown of my youth, I included the "dime stores", but I decided to try to make one or two points instead of a bunch. But yes, my little hometown's downtown included both Woolworth's and a GC Murphy store, where we my brother and I did indeed spend our baby sitting and lawn mowing money (life was pretty sexist back then).

Re: my comments about resort towns, I don't get what's "cold" about that. The quoted part came from a thread about Bradburn, do they have a Big Lots?

[livecontent]

The problem with sprawl may also be more of a problem with me than the changes that have occurred in the Metro area. When, I was younger, it was normal for me to get into my car and drive to Cinderella City, the Aurora Mall, WestLand Mall, Northglenn Mall, Southglenn Mall---sometimes in the same day.
I can remember shopping at the Montgomery Ward's on Broadway and driving to downtown to shop at The Denver and Neustetters. Then, taking a hop down to Southgate Plaza on Colorado.

I can remember the excitement of shopping on Hampden, at Tamarac, and Tiffany Square. There was a time that South Parker and East Iliff was the new, enticing section of town with the new restaurants and bars.

As the metro area, has gotten bigger, my energy level has diminished. My desire to get on the highways and see more, shop more, has gone. I want shops and stores simpler, smaller, closer to home. Perhaps it also because I need less, want less and are happy with less; or is it just the changes that go with age.

Livecontent

[MantaRay]

Originally Posted by Katiana

My concept of what NU is supposed to be, and what some on this board (not just Colorado) say it is, is the definition that livecontent provided. It's supposed to replicate the "Old Urbanism", but w/o the supposed flaws. So when I say "all inclusive", I mean, have the kind of shops you'd have found in the downtown of a decently-sized city.

That doesn't really hit the mark, though. It doesn't replicate old urbanism, it simply uses the backbone of old urbanism to build modern living on top of it. To understand that, you have to look at the history of new urbanism. It was really an unknown before the community of Seaside was built in Florida between Fort Walton Beach and Panama City. Generally speaking, cities were loathe to zone in ways to create a community like that in suburban areas, particularly because the concept of separation of uses had taken root, residential in one place, schools in another, commercial/retail in another, an inclosed mall in another. With Seaside, visionaries began to want to implement that type of community in their suburbs. Seaside did not replicate old urbanism. It took the principles of close proximity of homes (higher density), of sidewalks, of alleys behind homes, of curb parking in front of homes, of a central square, or town center, with retail and public green space/park space and used them. Those ARE old urbanist principles.

However, in the true old urbanist sense, density is high and typically comes in the form of condos and townhomes and apartments. Seaside made density high, but on a suburban single family home implementation. In the true old urbanist sense, you didn't have a garage attached to your home, and often didn't have one detached either. New urbanism took the old urbanist concept of alleys and ADDED the new modern lifestyle element of garages, even attached garages. It implemented the new on the philosophical platform of the old. It did NOT recreate the old. Seaside was NOT a recreation of old urbanism.

Once Seaside was built, others wanted what Seaside had, but as I mentioned, cities were loathe to zone that way. I'On was one of the fist post-Seaside new urbanist developments to fight that battle. Vince Graham, I'On's founder, had to battle NIMBYs in Mt. Pleasant, SC, which is the suburbs, is a bedroom community of Charleston. After great effort he eventually won that battle, and now the newer new urbanist communities use I'On as a benchmark. When you actually visit I'On, you see just what I described in Seaside- NOT a recreation of old urbanism, but single family homes in a high density footprint with garages on the back in alleys, with sidewalks and a town center with retail and public green/park space interspersed. And it wasn't trying to have all the retail amenities that an "old urban" setting would have. It was trying to retain a select few, understanding that residents already drive to work, and to the grocery store, and to the bank, but that residents would enjoy walking to a day spa and salon or to a nice restaurant or just to get ice cream. I mention I'On, but Kentlands in Maryland was another to come along in the I'On time frame.

Seaside sprang up in the '80s. Kentlands and I'On followed in the '90s. Then the fever spread and states all across the nation began saying WOW, we want one of those! And as actual urban areas began to revitalize, they began to use many of the visionaries who were already ON the new urbanist page, and so many infill project in the urban core began being "called" new urbanist when they are really just urbanist. They are urbanist projects/developments done by new urbanist visionaries and architects. My point is this- new urbanism, from the very first development in Seaside until this day, was NEVER meant to replicate old urbanism. It simply recognized that the core philosophy OF old urbanism was the best way to build a community. A suburban community. But it ALWAYS intended to weave modern amenities and the modern lifestyle into that core philosophy. So actually most new urban communities DON'T have a grocery store, for example whereas an old urban community did. This notion of new urbanism trying to replicate old urbanism is false.

To claim that new urbanism attempts to replicate old urbanism and then slamming it because it doesn't replicate it sufficiently is simply creating a bogus basis for slamming it. Seaside never attempted to replicate old urbanism. Kentlands never attempted to replicate old urbanism. I'On never attempted to replicate old urbanism. And most of the communities modeled on them or which used them for inspiration don't try to replicate old urbanism. People misunderstand this because they don't know the history of new urbanism. Hopefully providing some of that history helps to make matters a little more clear.

[MantaRay]

Originally Posted by Katiana

The issue I disagree with is :

This sounds like what you find in a resort town, and this is what you find in a lot of New Urbanism places, due to the high rents.

BINGO! New urbanism tries to mimick the feel of living in a resort. It's not about replicating old urbanism. It's about making people feel like they live in a vacation, like they have this nice modern home which they can walk out and sit on the front porch or walk or bike down the sidewalks or trails to a park space or pond and continue on to a little retail village which offers "fun-type" experiences. It is basically a planned community like a golf course community is a planned community, but with an old urbanist core philosophy- density, sidewalks/trails, parks, retail village core, all manicured. Just like the best resorts do it. But it adds in the whole schools thing, some add in the churches, others do go further and add in plans for a grocer like Stapleton has. Stapleton's spin has been THE most ambitious of any existing new urbanist community in the entire US. I read that Mesa Del Sol, being planned for Albuquerque, is at least equally as ambitious. Anyway, different developments put their own spin on the concept, but it essentially intends to bring resort village living to a city neighborhood format. And that neighborhood can be in the city like Stapleton or Highland's Garden Village or in the suburbs like Belmar or Bradburn. It's usually in the suburbs in most cities, though.