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If Des Moines had the natural geographic features and conservation lands that Madison has I could only imagine how fast it would be growing in percentage terms. Madison definitely wins there hands down. COL wise, Des Moines wins for now as Madison is likely the most expensive small to mid sized metro in the Midwest, but also has the highest per capita and median household income to back up the higher COL. Economy wise, I think that many are underestimating the private sector growth now occurring in Madison as the economic base has always been the UW and state government. Employers like Epic Systems in Verona are now leading to spinoffs (consulting firms) like Nordic Consulting and many others. Technology, Life Sciences, Medical, and Healthcare are all seeing growth. Commercial growth and new construction is also booming in Sun Prairie, although new housing permits and construction still seem lower than the housing bubble peak. Unemployment ranges from 4-5%, with the outlying areas probably closer to 2-3%. Most of the new jobs added in the Des Moines metro area during the prior decade were right over the Polk county line in Dallas County (Wells Fargo, and Insurance companies), but those did not count for Polk County. Dane County outperformed Polk County for new job growth in percentage terms between 2000-2010 by at least 8-10%.
Nice. Truthfully I believe that Madison, Des Moines, and Boise occupy a special class of their own, they are all great midsize cities. They seem to be the best cities of their size for anchoring a metro of less than 1 million people.
I love Madison's downtown, feels way more urban than most people would expect.
Once again we have returned to comparisons between Des Moines & Madison.
For a variety of reasons Madison is one of my favorite cities as I have expressed here before.
Metro Des Moines and metro Madison are 2 of the fastest growing midwestern areas & actually rank very well in that category on a national basis. Specifically between the 2 metros, the most recent population estimates give the per cent growth edge slightly to the Des Moines area so far this decade & suburban Dallas County, Iowa ranks high in the list of fasting growing counties in the U.S.
As I pointed out in another thread months ago, metro Madison is largely based in Dane County whose area is approximately the same size in square mileage as Polk & Dallas Counties combined. Given that the population center of Polk County is very much weighted close to it's western & southern borders, which is totally unlike the setting of Madison squarely in the center of Dane county, it does make sense to include the economic data for Dallas County as a side note to that of Polk.
Despite whatever the comparative job growth data says, metro Des Moines is going several years on now of vastly outperforming metro Madison in home building activity. Apparently the building activity is being absorbed very well too given that there is no surplus or sign of a bubble developing.
Outside of the City of Des Moines, there are typically between 5 to 7 suburbs that annually issue over 100 single family home building permits. As for example Ankeny, the second largest Des Moines suburb (pop. 49,000), alone is annually issuing a few hundred more permits per year than is the City of Madison. Dallas county-based Waukee (pop. 16,000) is ranked 4th in suburban metro permit activity but is now issuing almost as many home permits as is Madison. There is no comparative permitting activity in suburban Madison.
As a matter of fact, there are several other cities in Iowa that have more single family permitting activity than the City of Madison or are virtually tied with it. As for example, Cedar Rapids strongly outperforms Madison in that category & it's largest suburb, Marion, is virtually tied with Madison. Cedar Falls & Iowa City are also both issuing more home building permits than Madison.
If the jobs data cited by Granitestater were an absolutely fool proof indicator of growth for an area, Madison's theoretical advantage there should have risen to be evident in other areas of data by now in the post-recession period. So, in view of the building activity edge that the Des Moines area continues to enjoy several years running, I think that it would be a mistake to continue to overestimate the economic strength of metro Madison as compared to that of metro Des Moines.
A factor that could be holding back metro Madison now & perhaps in the long run is that it is located in Wisconsin, a state that is in a long trend of slowing population & overall economic growth. The state seems to have lost it's growth spark & reputation as a good place to invest & create jobs to the extent that it is performing very poorly in overall job growth & is estimated to be growing slower in population than is Iowa.
How dare us to think that cities like des Moines and omaha are great places. Never mind the constant national applause we get for being top notch. No, let's just whine, ***** and cry because aren't NYC.
The same crap on the Omaha board virtually killed a once active community. It's like some people have an agenda to ruin things for the rest of us. It is sad, pathetic to think these losers are allowed to own a computer.
Btw. The omaha community moved to a different board where it can be better moderated. I know des Moines has an awesome board too.
So this post is the kind that caused the responses. Sorry for those who have never read anyone stating something like this, because it is in this thread.
"Never mind the cosntant national applause we get for being top notch." That is the kind of statement that gets the nay sayers out.
When refering to cities that anchor a metro of less than a hundred million, but apparently needing to be at least a million or so, there are several other cities that seem to be missing from the list. Spokane was mentioned once, but should be near the top of the list. Albuquerque, depending on the size of the area included, could fall into that category and would absolutely dominate the other listed cities as well. If the cap were less restrictive and cities up to 1.3 million could compete than Oklahoma City and Tulsa would easily deserve mention.
So, Des Moines is a fine city in an otherwise bland state, but it really only reaches "great" status if the other great cities are removed from comparison. If it is compared to Iowa City, it is a beacon of industry.
While you some see the nay-sayers as responding to anything positive, I see the fan bois as responding to anything that appears negative.
Surely, they will come out to complain that I have unfairly demonized Des Moines, when I did no such thing. What I stated was entirely fair.
So this post is the kind that caused the responses. Sorry for those who have never read anyone stating something like this, because it is in this thread.
"Never mind the cosntant national applause we get for being top notch." That is the kind of statement that gets the nay sayers out.
When refering to cities that anchor a metro of less than a hundred million, but apparently needing to be at least a million or so, there are several other cities that seem to be missing from the list. Spokane was mentioned once, but should be near the top of the list. Albuquerque, depending on the size of the area included, could fall into that category and would absolutely dominate the other listed cities as well. If the cap were less restrictive and cities up to 1.3 million could compete than Oklahoma City and Tulsa would easily deserve mention.
So, Des Moines is a fine city in an otherwise bland state, but it really only reaches "great" status if the other great cities are removed from comparison. If it is compared to Iowa City, it is a beacon of industry.
While you some see the nay-sayers as responding to anything positive, I see the fan bois as responding to anything that appears negative.
Surely, they will come out to complain that I have unfairly demonized Des Moines, when I did no such thing. What I stated was entirely fair.
Uh, for its size/col it is a pretty sweet city. Saying this is not being a fanboy or acting like it competes with NYC. Everyone who thinks it is great, thinks it is great for the size and cost... they don't think it is flat-out better than larger cities.
The most in depth comparison in the thread is against Madison, WI... lol. You don't have to remove great cities to make Des Moines look great, you have to look at it honestly for what it is. Compare it to other cities between 200k and 250k in population that anchor their own metro area, if you want to be more fair, keep the metro areas in a similar range to 600K. Cities of this particular size-class tend to be fairly affordable to live well in, while still having enough jobs. When you start looking at the down-towns, redevelopments, available amenities, crime rates, skylines, etc... Des Moines outshines most of the competition in its class.
Again, I have never seen anyone act like it is objectively "better" than alpha cites, not even larger cities like Denver, KC, Tampa, etc... They may prefer to live in Des Moines, but that is different.
*Edit to add* All the cities that you want to compare Des Moines to are two to three times the population and have metro areas that are also two to three times the population. If you compare Des Moines to those cities by default, you are kinda proving the point of the Des Moines "boosters"*
So this post is the kind that caused the responses. Sorry for those who have never read anyone stating something like this, because it is in this thread.
"Never mind the cosntant national applause we get for being top notch." That is the kind of statement that gets the nay sayers out.
When refering to cities that anchor a metro of less than a hundred million, but apparently needing to be at least a million or so, there are several other cities that seem to be missing from the list. Spokane was mentioned once, but should be near the top of the list. Albuquerque, depending on the size of the area included, could fall into that category and would absolutely dominate the other listed cities as well. If the cap were less restrictive and cities up to 1.3 million could compete than Oklahoma City and Tulsa would easily deserve mention.
So, Des Moines is a fine city in an otherwise bland state, but it really only reaches "great" status if the other great cities are removed from comparison. If it is compared to Iowa City, it is a beacon of industry.
While you some see the nay-sayers as responding to anything positive, I see the fan bois as responding to anything that appears negative.
Surely, they will come out to complain that I have unfairly demonized Des Moines, when I did no such thing. What I stated was entirely fair.
You have completely missed the point. Yes, all of those are very nice cities. They have solid arguments to be in the argument. What I am talking about isn't the same as to what you are discussing here. My posts are not to compare but to discuss why we too (omaha, des Moines) have our arguments. In fact, it is okay to think you live in the best place and not live in your aforementioned cities. I happen to believe that the super close, twin metro areas have a very sound argument to be at the top of the best cities. You simply want us to shut up about as it is taboo to ever suggest such a thing.
Omaha and Lincoln have less than 25 miles of open fields and virtually all of Omahas growth is directed at Lincoln. Combine the population (900,000 and 300,000) and you have a major city on the cusp that is growing well above average. We have one of the top economies, top expendable incomes, three major division 1 universities, two major medical universities, five fortune 500 companies (headquartered), ten fortune 1000 (headquartered), a downtown with the sixth highest population in the Midwest with a continuous boom of condos and apartments, a highly regarded culinary scene, a top notch indie music scene, a booming arts scene, constantly have highly regarded tournaments coming to town, major concerts and music festivals happening at any given point, big city lawns with outside festivals rated as some of the top in the nation, surrounded by hills that rise up to 400 feet from their base (yes, not mountains. But very hilly). Arguably the world's best zoo, a major league ready baseball stadium that hosts the college world series, big ten and big east tournaments, a major convention center and arena that gets more use than most in the world (number of people that enter) that competes with several other arenas. We host world-wide events like the volleyball world grand prix, avca and north america tournaments. We have a lingerie football team etc. Constantly mentioned in publications as a top place for economy, music, overall living, beer mixology, top downtown, again zoo, top festivals, top resteraunts, top disposable income etc. Personally, I love the mountains. We don't have any here. However, we are just hours away. And the state of Nebraska has a very diverse and awesome terrain. We host delegates from across the country and a few from overseas so they can learn some things about revitalization and how they can try to duplicate what we have. All leave very impressed and few believe they could come close to duplicating. Cities like Colorado springs, Jacksonville and Akron are just a few.
That last paragraph isn't meant to compare with des Moines. It is meant to illustrate why I believe Omaha has a very valid argument. I know Des Moines has just as a valid argument. I know that as great as omaha is economically (top 3 per capita usually) that des Moines's per capita is rarely outside of number 1. Plus, the des Moines metro has now surpassed 600,000 (750,000 csa with Ames) which means the city must already be booming with arts and such much like Omaha did at that size. Omaha has things that des Moines doesn't have, but the vise versa is true too. I know that des Moines has an amusement park, a downtown grocery store etc.
In my opinion. Des Moines and Omaha are a very rare sister city combo. They are an hour and a half apart with nearly two million people living within a grand economy and really a luxurious lifestyle.
When looking at the ranking of a place on various economic & or quality of life lists, there are many factors that come into consideration.
Just because the natural setting of a place may be considered gorgeous or glamorous or cool or meet one person's standard as an excellent place in various factors does not necessarily translate into guaranteed economic growth or a state of economic nirvana.
Witness in the link below the miserable job situation that is presently found in Albuquerque which has been a problem there since the onset of the recession. Simply put, they have lost their mojo.
Because of the dire job situation & forecast, Albuquerque would fare poorly on any list rating of the best places to move to.
Similarly, Spokane has higher than average unemployment & their job growth is running at about 1% which is poor enough to keep them from an above average rating.
Certainly by comparison on that criteria, metro Des Moines & Madison are indeed well above average & have earned the kudos they are receiving from their status on such lists. Quest for Tesla plant highlights ABQ’s meager job growth | Albuquerque News & Weather | Abq, Rio Rancho, Santa Fe, NM | krqe.com
As an example of the kudos Des Moines has received recently, here is a link to Forbes.com which not only puts it ahead by their criteria of it's peer cities but also ahead of much larger cities & all of the sun belt cities as well. Madison is found very high on that same list. Des Moines, Iowa - In Photos: In Pictures: The 15 Best Cities For Young Adults - Forbes
Despite whatever the comparative job growth data says, metro Des Moines is going several years on now of vastly outperforming metro Madison in home building activity. Apparently the building activity is being absorbed very well too given that there is no surplus or sign of a bubble developing.
Outside of the City of Des Moines, there are typically between 5 to 7 suburbs that annually issue over 100 single family home building permits. As for example Ankeny, the second largest Des Moines suburb (pop. 49,000), alone is annually issuing a few hundred more permits per year than is the City of Madison. Dallas county-based Waukee (pop. 16,000) is ranked 4th in suburban metro permit activity but is now issuing almost as many home permits as is Madison. There is no comparative permitting activity in suburban Madison.
As a matter of fact, there are several other cities in Iowa that have more single family permitting activity than the City of Madison or are virtually tied with it. As for example, Cedar Rapids strongly outperforms Madison in that category & it's largest suburb, Marion, is virtually tied with Madison. Cedar Falls & Iowa City are also both issuing more home building permits than Madison.
If the jobs data cited by Granitestater were an absolutely fool proof indicator of growth for an area, Madison's theoretical advantage there should have risen to be evident in other areas of data by now in the post-recession period. So, in view of the building activity edge that the Des Moines area continues to enjoy several years running, I think that it would be a mistake to continue to overestimate the economic strength of metro Madison as compared to that of metro Des Moines.
A factor that could be holding back metro Madison now & perhaps in the long run is that it is located in Wisconsin, a state that is in a long trend of slowing population & overall economic growth. The state seems to have lost it's growth spark & reputation as a good place to invest & create jobs to the extent that it is performing very poorly in overall job growth & is estimated to be growing slower in population than is Iowa.
You keep bringing up the "new permits" for single family homes in Des Moines metro area compared to Madison. This is a 20th century way of looking at growth as it assumes a huge majority of "new growth" will almost exclusively be single family detached housing in suburban settings. The Great Plains and western Midwest does not follow national trends at all, so I expect the old mentality of growth and development to reign for longer. The larger difference is basically due to the fact that Madison metro area has more mature demographics and the only way they can build in many cases (other than annexing a few small parcels of land) is to build upward. Younger professionals and families alike want to live closer to Downtown and the more desirable neighborhoods close in if they can afford to. Also, many people who live in Madison want to live Downtown, on the Isthmus, or in many of the neighborhoods adjacent to the university. They increasingly do not want to live out in a far flung town and have an hour commute every day. Increasing demand in the core of the metro area leads to faster growth in real estate prices in the most desirable areas close to Downtown while the outlying areas remain cheaper relatively speaking. This mirrors the trend that is occurring in more coastal metropolitan areas. Projects - J.H. Findorff & Son Inc. | Wisconsin Construction Services The changing face of Madison: A new downtown development boom is all about apartments : Ct New Madison condos for sale | Madison WI condos under construction
"Madison's theoretical advantage there should have risen to be evident in other areas of data by now in the post-recession period. So, in view of the building activity edge that the Des Moines area continues to enjoy several years running, I think that it would be a mistake to continue to overestimate the economic strength of metro Madison as compared to that of metro Des Moines."
Population and Economic Growth Statistics:
Madison metro area:
Dane County: Population Percentage Change 2010-2013: 4.5%
Employment Change 2010-2011: 2.2%
Iowa County: (rural) Population Percentage Change 2010-2013: 0.3%
Employment Change 2010-2011: -2.0%
Columbia County: (rural) Population Percentage Change 2010-2013: -0.3%
Employment Change 2010-2011: 0.6%
Des Moines metro area:
Polk County: Population Percentage Change 2010-2013: 4.9%
Employment Change 2010-2011: -1.9%
Dallas County: Population Percentage Change 2010-2013: 12.9%
Employment Change 2010-2011: 7.8%
Warren County: Population Percentage Change 2010-2013: 2.4%
Employment Change 2010-2011: 1.0%
Madison County: (rural) Population Percentage Change 2010-2013: -1.5%
Employment Change 2010-2011: -0.1%
Guthrie County: (rural) Population Percentage Change 2010-2013: -2.4%
Employment Change 2010-2011: -6.0%
"A factor that could be holding back metro Madison now & perhaps in the long run is that it is located in Wisconsin, a state that is in a long trend of slowing population & overall economic growth. The state seems to have lost it's growth spark & reputation as a good place to invest & create jobs to the extent that it is performing very poorly in overall job growth & is estimated to be growing slower in population than is Iowa"
Iowa Population Percentage Change 2010-2013: 1.4%
Wisconsin Population Percentage Change 2010-2013: 1.0%
About the only reason that Iowa has seen slightly faster gains in population than Wisconsin is because Des Moines metro area has a very high birth rate compared to any area of Wisconsin and has a population that is younger than average..
They are sisters that don't get along very well. Omaha built their tallest building 4ft taller, only to upset their sister city, lol.
Yep, this is what it has come down to.
It was the city of Omaha versus the city of Des Moines. Had nothing to do with normal business patterns of two close-by financial companies trying to one up each other for the tallest building between Chicago and Denver.. Yep, so I will go ahead and apologize to the city folk of Des Moines for my decision to build a building for First National Bank that is four feet taller, because that difference really matters and I am too mean to have built it four feet shorter.
Nevertheless, despite all of those trends in housing in the City of Madison, it's metro is not blowing metro Des Moines out of the in growth water and is in fact estimated to be slightly trailing it in growth. And you have more than once indicated that Madison blows Des Moines out of the water in economic performance but yet it doesn't seem to be growing faster.
As is the case in Madison proper, newer concepts of housing also make up the bulk of permit growth in the City of Des Moines as well. It just so happens that given the land area & layout of the city itself, and how much of it is landlocked now by other communities, the great majority of the growth in the Des Moines area is & will continue to be outside of the core city itself.
I might point out that over the last 50 years, Madison has enjoyed a much more vigorous & successful policy of annexations than has Des Moines. Until a few small chunks were added in the 1990's & then an area of several square miles added during the 2000-2010 decade, Des Moines had not taken in any significant amount of new land into it's limits since the 1950's. By contrast, Madison's city limits were quite small in 1960 as compared to the present time.
I think that you will find that a major factor behind the higher Des Moines area birth rate is because it is a major medical center for central Iowa & that many births occur in it's hospitals & thus within the metro area rather than in smaller hospitals serving the more rural areas nearby. Not all of the births are for people who are residents of the metro area.
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