What Killed Detroit (Livonia, Roseville, Coleman: gated, job, houses)

[TheProf]

Prop 2 outlawed recruting of minorities as well as AA; even newspaper ads where business are specifically encourageing minorities to apply -- while decling to give them an automatic right for the job.... It was grounded in irrationality and slickly played on the fears of white people in a highly fragile/depressed state economy.

[Sijuki]

What killed Detroit? I think much of it started many many years ago. Detroit has always suffered issues of segregation and discrimination. Whether it was against Italians, Irish, Germans, or Blacks.

When you look at what is even considered the prosperous times of Detroit in the early 1900's there are many many problems with the city that almost foreshadow it's downfall. Sure Racism, and the 1967 riots probably were a huge factor in the quick decline of the city, but a lot of our problems, not only in Detroit but statewide, are our lack of communication with each other.

Seriously, who looks at much of Detroit and is proud of it? I am not talking about taking pride in something. I mean who can stand in places of the city like the Detroit Industrial Park and say they are proud to have a huge complex of abandoned factories bordered by gutted housing sitting there?

The mayor, the city council, and just plain regular citizens both of the city and suburbs like to pass blame. Blame will never help Detroit recover. Working together to create a bright beautiful restructured city center will help it recover. New York, Chicago, even Cleveland have central cities outlined by suburbs. We too can accomplish that, but everyone has to work together. Sure not all my ideas will be used, and not all your ideas will be used, but that is the joy of compromise. Try our best to decide what is best for all of us.

Segregation of so many people destroyed Detroit, it is only our unity that overcomes fear of race, ethnicity, and our history together to build a brighter future

[southernlady5464]

Forced busing wasn't the major blow to Detroit. Forced busing was just a final nail in the coffin. People were fleeing Detroit before forced bussing. Racial prejudice and just plain hatred and human nature have lead to Detroit's fall. Detroit is the largest city ever to rely on one major sector of the economy. That sector was the automobile. The sutomobile industry brought thousands of African-Americans from the South to Detroit(and other areas such as Flint). Sundown laws kept blacks out of Dearborn and other suburban areas. Blacks settled priamrily in Detroit. Many whites did not want blacks there and riots ensued, particularly during World War II. It was the 1967 race riot that sped up this phenomenon called "white flight". Many whites began to settle in the suburbs, taking taxes dollars with them. Forced busing caused this to happen faster. Most blacks and whites didn't want to go to school with each other. Many whites either went to private schools or moved to the suburbs while blacks stayed in the suburbs. Eventually the sundown laws would come to an end and many educated blacks began fleeing Detroit as well. To add to the problems, the collapse of the automobile industry caused massive joblessness, which pretty much gutted Detroit. The people who could leave(black and white) left and the people who couldn't leave(mainly the poor) stayed and were mired in the problems of Detroit. What killed Detroit was racial tensions and an unstable economy. School busing was just a symptom of it all.

You know, for a born and bred southerner, who just happened to live in MI for the last six years, this thread was a REAL eye opener.

And I always assumed northerners thought southerners were racist. Compared to what I see posted about Detroit, we had NOTHING going on in our town. Bussing was forced on us but we did it without complaining about it. No "white flight" in our town. We just dealt with it.

I knew about the Jim Crow laws...never heard of the Sundown Laws.

The worst racial tension we ever had in our town was a single high school riot one day between 3 black girls and 2 white girls. There was some name calling and hair pulling. All the girls got suspended.

On the other had, most automobile companies are opening factories in the South because they don't want to deal with unions, good or bad. The companies want total power so they can do what they want. That is why automobile plants are opening in places like Mississippi and Alabama. That and most of these plants are in rural areas where they can get tax breaks for setting up shop.

Right to work states don't actually give total power to the companies...

Right to work states can still allow unions, it's just not mandatory.

Right-to-work law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While most of them are built in fairly rural areas, that is not true of all of them. BMW is built in the Greenville-Spartanburg, SC corridor. The Toyota plant in Georgetown, KY is only 13 miles from Lexington, KY. The Nissan plant in Smyrna, TN is 20 miles from Nashville. and while the Honda plant in Lincoln, AL is fairly rural, most of you have probably heard of Talladega (it's about 5 miles from that speedway) and it's about 45 miles from Birmingham.

http://www.jama.org/library/pdf/brochure_Sep2006.pdf

EPA - Plant-Community Profiles By State

Liz

[scottmi]

Detroit has suffered because of two equally important things:

Minorities "taking over" the city part and white people abandoning it for suburbs for safety reasons more than anything.

Major businesses (car industry) getting too much control in the cities and backing from the state government despite the fact that the industry has changed dramatically where domestic cars are no longer as popular or profitable as they once were. As a result, the burden of employing all these former-auto workers and sustaining these overpriced, overrated communities is falling on small and mid-sized businesses - things Michigan has never cared about.

[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by southernlady5464

You know, for a born and bred southerner, who just happened to live in MI for the last six years, this thread was a REAL eye opener.

And I always assumed northerners thought southerners were racist. Compared to what I see posted about Detroit, we had NOTHING going on in our town. Bussing was forced on us but we did it without complaining about it. No "white flight" in our town. We just dealt with it.

I knew about the Jim Crow laws...never heard of the Sundown Laws.

The worst racial tension we ever had in our town was a single high school riot one day between 3 black girls and 2 white girls. There was some name calling and hair pulling. All the girls got suspended.



Right to work states don't actually give total power to the companies...

Right to work states can still allow unions, it's just not mandatory.

Right-to-work law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While most of them are built in fairly rural areas, that is not true of all of them. BMW is built in the Greenville-Spartanburg, SC corridor. The Toyota plant in Georgetown, KY is only 13 miles from Lexington, KY. The Nissan plant in Smyrna, TN is 20 miles from Nashville. and while the Honda plant in Lincoln, AL is fairly rural, most of you have probably heard of Talladega (it's about 5 miles from that speedway) and it's about 45 miles from Birmingham.

http://www.jama.org/library/pdf/brochure_Sep2006.pdf

EPA - Plant-Community Profiles By State

Liz

It is all relative. By northern standards, Detroit was one of the worst. By far, the north wasn't the only region. When Atlanta had forced busing in the 70's, this phenomenon known as "white flight" occurred(and continued through the 1990's and the initial part of the 2000's decade.(it is beginning to reverse itself). The only difference between Detroit and Atlanta is that Atlanta had people from other regions coming to the metropolitan Atlanta area in droves(it is still happening today). Ironic. Atlanta has been touted as "To Busy To Hate." I don't think any city is too busy to hate. The difference is that Atlanta, even though it did have a riot, and there was massive "white flight", likes to think of itself as "too busy to hate." No city is truly like that I haven't heard other cities go by that slogan. I'm just speaking on my research(and some personal experience).

[jumpygh]

Originally Posted by TheProf

Prop 2 outlawed recruting of minorities as well as AA; even newspaper ads where business are specifically encourageing minorities to apply -- while decling to give them an automatic right for the job.... It was grounded in irrationality and slickly played on the fears of white people in a highly fragile/depressed state economy.

Yeah, right. So far, Washington, California, and Michigan have outlawed AA by wide margins. Those are three of the more liberal states in the country, where AA might be expected to be popular. No state has voted down one of these initiatives. Your "explanation" for why Michigan voted for Prop 2 are silly. Is it irrational to think everyone should be treated the same? Were Washington and California "depressed" economically when they banned AA? I see no evidence for your assertions.

Do you really think ANY state would vote to uphold AA if given the chance? Face it, AA is deeply unpopular in this country. Most people believe that everybody should be treated the same.

Even a decent percentage of black folks who would benefit from AA want to see it banned. Can you explain that?

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by jumpygh

Yeah, right. So far, Washington, California, and Michigan have outlawed AA by wide margins. Those are three of the more liberal states in the country, where AA might be expected to be popular. No state has voted down one of these initiatives. Your "explanation" for why Michigan voted for Prop 2 are silly. Is it irrational to think everyone should be treated the same? Were Washington and California "depressed" economically when they banned AA? I see no evidence for your assertions.

Do you really think ANY state would vote to uphold AA if given the chance? Face it, AA is deeply unpopular in this country. Most people believe that everybody should be treated the same.

Even a decent percentage of black folks who would benefit from AA want to see it banned. Can you explain that?

Silly? Let's sledgehammer the false underpinnings of you're misguided premise.

Point 1. White people created affirmative action; specifically, the Kennedy-Johnson administration, in Executive Order 11246, because they understood that bigotry in keeping blacks and other minorities out of the labor force deeply damaged American commerce particularly in the face of comp the Soviets. The phraseology of the E.O. created the term in that it said (paraphrasing) ... the nation must take all due affirmative action to correct this problem.

Point 2. Understanding this, then, you should understand the reason for AA was because all people WERE NOT BEING TREATED THE SAME.

Point 3. Irrational fears are/were just that. Studies have clearly shown, despite fear-mongering fanned by hate-mongers and other, qualified whites are not losing seats at major universities (like the U's of Michigan and Texas) to African Americans.

Point 4. Don't throw at me Washington, California or Michigan as examples that outlawing AA is somehow right, despite the Blue State nature (Michigan being barely being a Blue state), because clearly in rural and working class areas, whites have always (since before the Civil War) been conned by the rich into believing Blacks are stealing their jobs and way of live when, really, the rich white establishment looks down its collective nose as much or more on working class and poor whites than it does at blacks -- it was not blacks that created the term "poor white trash" after all, it was the rich Southern planters who conned poor whites into fighting their (the planter's) war to protect an institution that meant nothing to poor whites: slavery. Indeed, many poor Southern whites who wised up to the situation -- esp in places like Tenn., opposed the Civil War...

In sum, people like you merely prove the old adage: the more things change, the more they remain the same.

[and the]

In sum, people like you merely prove the old adage: the more things change, the more they remain the same.

Like in Detroit?

[pirate_lafitte]

Detroit is going down because of bad economics and bad politics. Racial tensions and prejudice were really bad symptoms of the problems. Other cities had that, but Detroit was given a harsh blow from its automobile-exclusive economy.

[dfrannie]

Originally Posted by BurtsBees

That killed Detroit?

A poorly run city is a start.

Don't forget the corruption of the politicians, and how they don't want to do anything for that city.