What Killed Detroit (Charlotte, Portland, Nashville: home, buy, income)

[jeffncandace]

Originally Posted by jumpygh

That's not very convincing, professor. You say we need mass transit. But why? There is no congestion problem. Who is going to want to ride it? If you want to have mass transit, you first have to convince people they need it. It's way, way too expensive to have a "if you build it they will come" mentality. You're talking about the upheaval and destruction of huge swaths of the city. And I just can't see the point. I really can't see where the money will come from.

New York absolutely has to have mass transit or the entire island of Manhattan would be gridlocked 24/7 (it practically is already). Detroit is much different. Just because Boston and New York have mass transit doesn't mean every city has to.

No congestion problem? Where do you live?

Detroit is no L.A. But every major metropolitan area, and yes--Detroit is one of them--needs mass transit.

[jumpygh]

Originally Posted by jeffncandace

No congestion problem? Where do you live?

Detroit is no L.A. But every major metropolitan area, and yes--Detroit is one of them--needs mass transit.

But do people want it? If they did, wouldn't it have already been built?

The city thrived with twice as many people without mass transit. How was that possible if mass transit is a "must"?

[magellan]

Originally Posted by jeffncandace

No congestion problem? Where do you live?

Detroit is no L.A. But every major metropolitan area, and yes--Detroit is one of them--needs mass transit.

Agreed Jeff. Detroit may be different in that a lot of commuting patterns are "suburb-to-suburb", whereas many cities are "suburb-to-downtown", but that doesn't mean that mass transit wouldn't help the metro area.

In case you haven't heard jumpygh, there are many more cities than Boston and New York that have effective and successful rapid transit systems, or have projects in the works. How about Minneapolis, San Diego, Portland, Seattle (rapid bus), Central Florida, Miami, Atlanta, Houston, Charlotte, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New Jersey, Philadelphia, D.C., Salt Lake City, Denver, Phoenix, Nashville, just to name a few. In fact, Salt Lake City and Denver taxpayers approved $Billions in new tax funding to quadruple their mass transit systems because the current systems they have are so popular. SLC and Denver have nowhere near the population density and stress on their highway infrastructure that Oakland and Wayne County have.

And since we live in a climate where concrete and asphalt barely last a decade, why would we continue to build more of it????!! One rapid transit system (light rail or commuter rail), can handle the same traffic volume as a 16 lane superhighway. What "swaths" of land would two railroad tracks destroy? Especially when Detroit has hundreds of miles of abandoned interurban track ROW's running everywhere.

But to say that Detroit would have built it already if it were right for Detroit ignores the political climate between Detroit and its suburbs (which cooperation would be essential to run a successful system), and the political climate in Michigan. We're now going on 4 or 5 generations of Michiganians who have never experienced a real working mass transit system in Michigan. Many really don't know what they are missing. And where are all the Michigan college grads going? To Chicago, to live in the hip neighborhoods along the L lines.....

But in answer to the original poll, no, I don't think forced bussing killed Detroit.

[jumpygh]

How are you going to pay for this mass transit? In case you haven't noticed, raising taxes isn't a real popular idea now. This is just pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking.

Metro Detroiters don't even want the bus system they have. Livonia just pulled out of the system. Until people want mass transit, it's not going to happen.

I don't know about you, but I have over a year's experience riding mass transit to work, and I hated it. I guess I'm an idiot for feeling that way.

[magellan]

Originally Posted by jumpygh

How are you going to pay for this mass transit? In case you haven't noticed, raising taxes isn't a real popular idea now. This is just pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking.

Metro Detroiters don't even want the bus system they have. Livonia just pulled out of the system. Until people want mass transit, it's not going to happen.

I don't know about you, but I have over a year's experience riding mass transit to work, and I hated it. I guess I'm an idiot for feeling that way.

Frankly, as a resident of Grand Rapids, I'm more interested in how Grand Rapids can expand its already pretty successful bus system into something large scale.

My only point was that to dismiss mass transit outright for Detroit is misguided. Obviously, the current mass transit system has to be well run and efficient before the area can invest in something large scale. Plus, I agree that riding a bus every day (as I have done in the past) to work is not all that pleasant, but riding a train/light rail/subway to work (as I have also done) is much different and much better, and was good enough that I left my car at home.

Sure, it will cost money, but so do expanded freeways. Many metro areas pay for their mass transit system expansions through small incremental local sales taxes, which cost individual taxpayers very little, but add up to a lot of tax revenue. To make cities better, the answer isn't always to cut taxes.

But above all, to say that "what is working now in the Detroit metro area is even the slightest bit acceptable" is ludicrous, or to continue or expand on how things are being done now is driving the ship right AT the barrier reefs.

[jeffncandace]

Originally Posted by magellan

But above all, to say that "what is working now in the Detroit metro area is even the slightest bit acceptable" is ludicrous, or to continue or expand on how things are being done now is driving the ship right AT the barrier reefs.

Amen, to use a term from the Religion forum. Regardless of how it's paid for, we do need it. I can't understand how anyone could say differently.

[jumpygh]

Originally Posted by magellan

Plus, I agree that riding a bus every day (as I have done in the past) to work is not all that pleasant, but riding a train/light rail/subway to work (as I have also done) is much different and much better, and was good enough that I left my car at home.

Well, I'll have to take your word for it, as I've only ever ridden the bus.

My point wasn't to dismiss the whole idea. It certainly could work in the future, but I see a TON of reasons why it wouldn't work.

Above all, I hate to see the lack of mass transit as an excuse for why Detroit is lagging.

[green_mariner]

An economy based almost exculsively on the automobile plus race riots is what caused Detroit to unravel and that effect has lasted to the present day.

[and the]

No congestion problem? Where do you live?

Detroit is no L.A. But every major metropolitan area, and yes--Detroit is one of them--needs mass transit.

I wouldn't use it, and I wouldn't want to pay for others to use it either. I really don't think the people who can't get to minimum wage jobs would get up any earlier to get to minimum wages jobs if they had a bus, trolly or train available.

As far as congestion, Detroit doesn't really have any. The suburbs do, but I don't think enough suburbanites would give up their cars for mass transit to the extent that it would affect congestion. You rarely even see anyone carpooling with the price of gas way up there.

[jeffncandace]

Originally Posted by and the

I wouldn't use it, and I wouldn't want to pay for others to use it either. I really don't think the people who can't get to minimum wage jobs would get up any earlier to get to minimum wages jobs if they had a bus, trolly or train available.

As far as congestion, Detroit doesn't really have any. The suburbs do, but I don't think enough suburbanites would give up their cars for mass transit to the extent that it would affect congestion. You rarely even see anyone carpooling with the price of gas way up there.

So many different things wrong with this post...but I'll just say that when I say "Detroit" as it relates to this conversation, I include the Metro area, as the suburbs exist around the burb. And this particular suburbanite would happily give up his car for mass transit (other than buses).

Many things other than mass transit have to change for the Metro area to experience true rebirth. But a mass transit system would enable and facilitate many positive things. You have to look to the future--past all those minimum wage workers who, in your estimation, won't get up any earlier to get to minimum wages jobs if they had a bus, trolly or train available. (An interesting thought, but truthful for all of them?)