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Old 12-31-2010, 12:08 PM
 
13,806 posts, read 9,643,643 times
Reputation: 5243

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Quote:
Originally Posted by edub View Post
Indentured Servant, I've noticed that you have a lot of theories with no basis in fact and that you manufacture these theories to fill a need to blame white people for all of the problems facing Blacks. If anything suggest black inferiority, it is your own argument.
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Unless you can properly present my argument......I will not read the remainder of your rebuttal. I have CLEARLY stated that even in the absence of slavery, Jim Crow and racism, blacks would still HAVE PROBLEMS. I mean.....white people were not enslaved in this country and they have problems. Thus, how could you logically deduce that I believe that blacks would have no problems if not for what whites have done? That is totally illogical. Do you think I believe that blacks would exist in a state of utopia with no poverty, no unemployment, no crime etc, if not for slavery and Apartheid in America? The logical conclusion of your premise can only be that blacks would have NO PROBLEMS if not for whites, given that you say that I have blamed ALL black problems on whites. Thus, given that your premise is a flawed straw man and is fallacious....anything you infer from that premise (the remainder of your rebuttal) is flawed and fallacious as well, by deduction.

 
Old 12-31-2010, 01:25 PM
 
51 posts, read 123,449 times
Reputation: 44
I guess Hitler just picked 6 million people at random. What luck. Maybe you can't find a jew but other whites had a knack for it and were more than willing to invest the time. 2000 years and we were right every time. Vegas, here we come baby.

And I didnt say the Jews were a distinct race, I said culture. They are an ethnicity in addition to being a religion. Their success despite that discrimination is still interesting.

As for how black urban culture got into the state is today, I don't really know. There are too many variables. I can see that you are prone to conspiratorial views but I need evidence for claims myself. Sometimes steel melts, sometimes people take a wrong turn. There doesnt have to be an arch conspiracy to explain every bump in the road.
 
Old 12-31-2010, 02:40 PM
 
13,806 posts, read 9,643,643 times
Reputation: 5243
Quote:
Originally Posted by errhuh View Post
I guess Hitler just picked 6 million people at random. What luck. Maybe you can't find a jew but other whites had a knack for it and were more than willing to invest the time. 2000 years and we were right every time. Vegas, here we come baby.

And I didnt say the Jews were a distinct race, I said culture. They are an ethnicity in addition to being a religion. Their success despite that discrimination is still interesting.

As for how black urban culture got into the state is today, I don't really know. There are too many variables. I can see that you are prone to conspiratorial views but I need evidence for claims myself. Sometimes steel melts, sometimes people take a wrong turn. There doesnt have to be an arch conspiracy to explain every bump in the road.
In regards to how the Jews were identified.....here is a quick google I did.
Answers.com - How did the Nazis know if you were Jewish

What Jewish people have is purpose and Unity centered around their religion and identity, which elivates them. Whites attack blacks for having or attempting such unity on the grounds that "whites are not allowed to promote white purpose and white unity". You see, whites act like they are angry that they cannot unify and have white centric teachings, media, entertainment, schools and purpose. Whites don't realize that for all intents and purposes....such already exists. They may not be EXCLUSIVE in an absolute sense but they are indeed white centric. However, Jewish people in America are not attacked for having Jewish Centric schools, teachings and purpose, partly because there is freedom of religion in America. Therefore, this is why a comparison of a religious group and the culture that emenates from that religion with that of a racial group makes no sense at all.

There is a reason for EVERYTHING. You might call that conspiratorial theory but I happen to know the history of this nation and I know the history of how the West destabilizes other nations for their interest. When this nation wanted to get involved in Vietnam.....it invented an incident to serve as the pretext. The Native Americans were given small pox in blankets. Their Buffalo were killed off. Their treaties were broken and they were given alcohol to keep them inebriated.....all so that the white man could get the land. Of course.....that was no conspiracy either.
 
Old 12-31-2010, 02:41 PM
 
92,144 posts, read 122,355,529 times
Reputation: 18157
Quote:
Originally Posted by errhuh View Post
I guess Hitler just picked 6 million people at random. What luck. Maybe you can't find a jew but other whites had a knack for it and were more than willing to invest the time. 2000 years and we were right every time. Vegas, here we come baby.

And I didnt say the Jews were a distinct race, I said culture. They are an ethnicity in addition to being a religion. Their success despite that discrimination is still interesting.

As for how black urban culture got into the state is today, I don't really know. There are too many variables. I can see that you are prone to conspiratorial views but I need evidence for claims myself. Sometimes steel melts, sometimes people take a wrong turn. There doesnt have to be an arch conspiracy to explain every bump in the road.
I think what I.S. is saying is that to compare Jews and other minority groups to Blacks is pretty tough considering the socio-historical experiences are totally different and even the volume of people involved is really an Apples to Orabges comparison. Even if you look at other forums like the general US forum, Asian posters see the "model minority" tag as being negative to a degree, because it's making it seem like asians don't have issues in terms of poverty, racism and so on. For instance, SE Asians have poverty rates on par with Blacks, but if you went by the stereotypes of what Asians are in the US, you would think that ALL Asians were problem free. It's ironic that Asians as a general group still have an overall higher poverty rate, their income is skwed by mainly living in higher cost of living areas and they vary culturally from East, SE and South Asian countries.

People also forget about how immigration didn't really take off until after the Civil Rights Movement. So, these minority groups, including African and many Caribbean immigrants come with a different experience that doesn't involve the reality of history that African-Americans have had for centuries. That in turn recognizes a change, but it also should leave room for people to realize that being a "minority" or coming from a group with a history of discrimination makes all things equal, per se. Think about it, about 80% of Black people in the uS have had roots that go back before the Civil War, whereas 70% of Whites have roots from people that came after the Civil War. So, that should speak to why many Black Americans refer to history and can get into things like privilege and post Civil War laws/socio-racial aspects. So, I can totally see what I.S. is saying, because even with the honest social advantages that come with being white in the US, Whites still have their issues to deal with. In fact, that might have something to say about our society as a whole and the reality of the human condition. We just can't say that is in the past, because if that is the case, why do we refer to our founding fathers or the Constitution that was written in a different time and place in American society, as an example?
 
Old 12-31-2010, 08:05 PM
 
51 posts, read 123,449 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
The Native Americans were given small pox in blankets. Their Buffalo were killed off. Their treaties were broken and they were given alcohol to keep them inebriated.....all so that the white man could get the land. Of course.....that was no conspiracy either.
The overwhelming majority of native deaths were because they lacked resistance to European diseases. Millions died that way. It was not a Spanish plot. That in one case, hundreds of years later, two blankets were handed out by a British officer is hardly evidence of a significant effort. Millions of natives had died of smallpox going back hundreds of years. Indians were often warned to stay away from trading posts by Europeans, but it didnt stop them from coming. That was an accident of geography, biology, and time.

And If the Natives had been more situated to resist Eurasian diseases, few Africans would have been brought over as slaves, as North America would have already been stocked with cheap labor. The Spanish, who established the African slave trade, certainly tried to make it work with Natives.

As for the Jews, we also identified them in the United States. They identified them easily in Russia as well. It's not like the Nazi discrimination was the beginning and end of it. No, they didnt share the black experience. But they also didnt have it easy.

The Black experience in the US was certainly ugly. Ive never argued that it wasnt. But the neighborhoods of Detroit have been rotting for a long time. The cavalry isnt coming. What happens is up to them. If I were them, I'd look for positive examples.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 08:30 AM
 
13,806 posts, read 9,643,643 times
Reputation: 5243
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
I think what I.S. is saying is that to compare Jews and other minority groups to Blacks is pretty tough considering the socio-historical experiences are totally different and even the volume of people involved is really an Apples to Orabges comparison. Even if you look at other forums like the general US forum, Asian posters see the "model minority" tag as being negative to a degree, because it's making it seem like asians don't have issues in terms of poverty, racism and so on. For instance, SE Asians have poverty rates on par with Blacks, but if you went by the stereotypes of what Asians are in the US, you would think that ALL Asians were problem free. It's ironic that Asians as a general group still have an overall higher poverty rate, their income is skwed by mainly living in higher cost of living areas and they vary culturally from East, SE and South Asian countries.

People also forget about how immigration didn't really take off until after the Civil Rights Movement. So, these minority groups, including African and many Caribbean immigrants come with a different experience that doesn't involve the reality of history that African-Americans have had for centuries. That in turn recognizes a change, but it also should leave room for people to realize that being a "minority" or coming from a group with a history of discrimination makes all things equal, per se. Think about it, about 80% of Black people in the uS have had roots that go back before the Civil War, whereas 70% of Whites have roots from people that came after the Civil War. So, that should speak to why many Black Americans refer to history and can get into things like privilege and post Civil War laws/socio-racial aspects. So, I can totally see what I.S. is saying, because even with the honest social advantages that come with being white in the US, Whites still have their issues to deal with. In fact, that might have something to say about our society as a whole and the reality of the human condition. We just can't say that is in the past, because if that is the case, why do we refer to our founding fathers or the Constitution that was written in a different time and place in American society, as an example?
That was very well articulated....but more importantly....TRUE. The bottom line is that some people prefer a photo analysis while others prefer the video. Some people prefer to read the last page of each chapter, to try and figure out what is going on, while some people prefer to go from page to page in the chapter for understanding. The problem is that many people don't want the video evidence or all the pages of the chapter to be used to draw any conclusions. They want to try to explain the black condition today......without the use of the past. Why? Why would not a person want such powerful information used? Why would people try to separate the present from the past....when the present is the creation of the past? Why would people want to believe and attempt to propagate the idea that actions do not begat reactions and hence that 300 years of abuse to black people had no negative reactions that transcends time and space, economics, phsycology and culture?

Culture has been a big theme in this debate. As I pointed out, culture requires a high degree of isolation in order to maintain a difference. The historical propensity of whites to move away from blacks or to systematically isolate blacks is what created and incubated different cultures in America between blacks and whites. Detroit used to, as the very least, be an 85% white city. Now it is an 85% racially isolated black city, while the suburbs are 90% + white. Culture is learned behavior. If whites think they have the SUPREM culture, relative to blacks, their refusal to integrate with blacks keeps blacks from learning and emulating that supreme culture. Whites learn white culture by being immersed around white people....one is not BORN with culture....its learned and emulated from ones environment. Since culture is a learned behavior.....how can blacks learn it if whites will not immerse and fully integrate? Why won't many whites send their kids to schools that have lots of blacks? They don't want the immersion because they feel that whites may learn and emulate the culture and behavior of blacks and or miscegination. Its like a dog chasing its tail because it is the treatment and reaction to blacks, by whites, which creates and incubates the behavior and culture that whites then say is the problem. It becomes a self fullfilling prophecy and endless cylce.

Detroits is like a fossil in that it captures the racial attitudes of the period in which the regions growth ended or dramatically slowed, which was the beginning of the 70's. Regions that have boomed over the last 40 years demonstrates and reflects more modern racial attitudes....and hence are not as segregated as older slow or no growth regions like Detroit. So the Detroit area is indeed SEGREGATED, because the evolution of how it arrived at this racial divide was systematic discrimation over the decades.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 01-01-2011 at 08:39 AM..
 
Old 01-01-2011, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,776,432 times
Reputation: 3920
Indentured Servant, City-Data is not your own personal self-help program for whites. I think most of us have heard more than enough. Move on.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 09:16 AM
 
13,806 posts, read 9,643,643 times
Reputation: 5243
Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Indentured Servant, City-Data is not your own personal self-help program for whites. I think most of us have heard more than enough. Move on.
ARe you trying to segregate.....keep people like me from certain topics? I am not welcome? Hmmmm.....sounds to me like the same type of reaction that created a segregated Detroit. Certainly you have the POWER to isolate or ban me from an area....not unlike what caused Detroit to be the way it is.
 
Old 01-01-2011, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,776,432 times
Reputation: 3920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
ARe you trying to segregate.....keep people like me from certain topics? I am not welcome? Hmmmm.....sounds to me like the same type of reaction that created a segregated Detroit. Certainly you have the POWER to isolate or ban me from an area....not unlike what caused Detroit to be the way it is.
I'm not going to ban you. I'm saying that you've gone from debating the issue to monopolizing the topic and trying to brow-beat people into submission, just because they disagree with you and don't subscribe to the same theories. Find something else to discuss for a while.

Topic closed for a while.
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