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Old 05-27-2011, 11:35 PM
 
7,238 posts, read 5,216,834 times
Reputation: 5347

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForStarters View Post
I don't want to speak for detroitlove (or anyone else), but I think what upsets some people is the generalizing that occurs. I think it is simply unnecessary stereotyping that creates unnecessary havoc. People seem to lay off me because I live downtown, but then make broad statements about the rest of the city that aren't really true, such as residents being uneducated, poor, and unemployed as if it's a given. I have many friends, black, white, and other that live in southwest Detroit, on the eastside, and in other places that are highly educated, are very much employed, and make more money than I do. One of my friends who lives on the eastside far from downtown has an MBA, another friend in southwest has a law degree. I have a friend who lives in a somewhat rougher neighborhood who is a teacher. All of whom went to Detroit Public Schools and are now successful, respectable individuals.

There are definitely Detroiters who are awful, non-productive, pains in the arse, but the sweeping generalizations are often not true. To have a productive conversation, you can't make generalizations about people. For instance, I could say that all Birmingham residents are rich, snobbish, jerks who care about nothing but money and expensive luxuries. Does that describe some Birmingham residents? Surely, it does, but it is not fair to characterize the entire town as such. Thus, if you want to criticize Detroiters, make it clear who you are talking about, so the productive, educated people don't get offended by your generalizations.
Context is the key.

I can't speak for hiphopcr either, but I'm fairly certain he didn't mean *ALL* people in Detroit were un/undereducated, unemployed, poor, or all or the above, but a fair majority fall in one or more of the three categories, which is true and I'm not sure why anyone would disagree.

My point is these fallacies are really non-starter in the gist of it all.
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:11 AM
 
15 posts, read 23,969 times
Reputation: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
There are almost a million less people than there was in the 1950s. 200,000 less than 10 yers ago.
Yes the city has some fabulous areas. (How many rock stars, athletes and CEOs live in the city limits?) Even DAve Bing had to MOVE into the city to run for mayor..
But there is nothing (ok, very little) opportunity for the people who live in the city to make a living, shop at a real grocery store, or pick up a few quick items at Wally World. Because there are NO name brand franchise stores in the city. Not really sure why that is.

There was a time when Wally World offered classes at one (maybe more) Detroit high school teaching the skills needed to be a greeter or some other great position at Wally World. Problem is, there are no Wally Worlds in Detroit. So these Wally World students have to get on a D-DOT bus, take it to the city limits and either jump a SEMTA bus to the northern or southern burbs for a Wally World. They CANNOT get a bus to Livonia WAlly World because the good folks of the wonder bread capital USA voted to kick SEMTA out so that "those" people would not ride into LIviona via I-96 to shop at Meijers or Wally World.

ILlich has been allowed to use imminent domain to build his empire on Woodward which includes the FOX Theater, Comerica PArk and Hockey Town. Now he wants to force more landowners to goie up what is theirs and give it to him to relocate the hockey arena near the Illich compound.

So even the hard working folks in Detroit can lose their property to PROGRESS for pennies on the dollar--but hey--it's not like anyone else is wanting to but them, right?

And those who do live in one of the mansions that line certain areas (where are those?) pay a tax rate that amounts to extortion (but everyone pays that high rate, not everyone gets the services) for fire and police coverage. Because a house outside the covenanted mansion row will burn to the ground, or be burgled 5x faster than one on mansion row. But even a mansion has the chance to burn on a bad day.
Folks use the term GENTRIFICATION when talking about Detroit. Maybe that is an appropriate term? I see it as the powerful and influential feeding off the folks who are working themselves to death to pay taxes, get to a decent grocery store, and buy clothes so they MIGHT be able to get a ride, gas up the car and drive into the burbs to try and find employment. When that fails, well it usually ends up on the news as some hyped up lead story of how the citizens of the city have turned to self-indulgent acts to satisfy their cravings..

So is it the worse in the world? Doubtful. Have you seen any city India? Any city in Mexico? Central America? China? Detroit is far from the worse in the world.

What it is one of the worse at is allowing politicans and elected officials, from the school board to city council and all the Kilpatricks that have been and are yet to come, to run roughshod over their right to a humane existance and convincing the citizens they don't need no accountability or responsibility from their officials because "We are all in this together.' only when the city starts to stager, the officials are the first out with their war chests and the citizens are worse for the wear...
Well I was just wondering about the ghettos and "8 mile" like places with broken homes and destroyed families and trailer parks and of course their are parts but you can say there are good parts of Somalia and North Korea there is always some good parts
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Old 05-28-2011, 08:32 AM
 
Location: north of Windsor, ON
1,887 posts, read 2,848,844 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
A few misconceptions here:
  • It's not about "investing"; it's about maintaining.
Yes, but investment would help, too. They say about business, "if you're not growing, you're dying."
  • Sidewalks need to be fixed for the safety of the citizens. In Eastpointe, they divided the city into 10 sectors. Every ten years your sidewalks are inspected and replaced as necessary. Paid for by the property owner.
Yes, Eastpointe has some of the best sidewalks I've ever seen. Some of the tallest grass, but certainly some of the finest sidewalks known to man. If only people wouldn't hide them under unshoveled snow
  • I'm not talking about "landscaping"; I'm talking about cutting the grass.
A couple of years ago, there was 6' tall grasses and weeds along Moross. I have pictures...someday when I find them I'll post them.
  • Just because residents are poor, uneducated, and unemployed doesn't mean they should not be receiving their taxdollar's worth of city services.
But...statistics show the poor and ignorant are less likely to vote. Groups that live and die based on politics (such as the city government) either go where the money and votes are or towards the squeaky wheel, preferably both at the same time. Until the have-nots in America consistently go and vote (and not just because Barack Obama is on the ballot) they're going to get screwed politically, and rightfully so.
  • There are many things that the city can do to improve the neighborhoods: Bulk trash pick-up, tearing down burnt-out buildings, code enforcement, etc. None of these have the glamor of light rail, but they are precisely the things that people expect from their tax-dollars.
Light rail looks futuristic (or Communist-bloc, depending on who you talk to) and gets news stories. I'm nobody's liberal on most issues, but when I'm in Cleveland and see the RTA station or when I ride the TTC subway in Toronto, I feel a pang of jealousy. Nobody gets excited over code enforcement, except for senior citizens (oh wait, most of them vote).
  • I'd be willing to bet that most Detroiters do not do downtown on a regular basis, but they do spend everyday in their neighborhoods.
...and investment will help keep their dollars in the city, instead of places like Roseville and Madison Heights.
  • "Contributing members of society" are not going to move to a city thay doesn't provide basic city services.
They will, if the taxes are cheap. My township doesn't offer all that much as far as I can tell, but my taxes are probably half of what they'd be in Detroit or River Rouge.
-----------------
(mine in italics)
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Old 05-28-2011, 08:55 AM
 
1 posts, read 1,263 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
I tried shopping the Eastern Market on a Friday afternoon...guess they sold out? I like to shop when I want to shop. As good as the EM is, I do not always want to get up at 6:00 am, walking 1/2 mile to get to the market and fight a crowd just to get a few veggies and over priced meat...I like shopping after work in the early evening and walking less than a mile to get in the front door.
I hate going into place that has limited variety like University Market of Save More...
"I like"...."I do not always want"...."Il like"......"I hate".....

Interesting
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Your computer screen.
6,099 posts, read 4,817,328 times
Reputation: 5972
Originally Posted by Retroit

A few misconceptions here:
  • It's not about "investing"; it's about maintaining.
Yes, but investment would help, too. They say about business, "if you're not growing, you're dying." But you should only invest after you've paid for necessities. When you get your paycheck, do you call up your broker or do you pay the utility bills?
  • Sidewalks need to be fixed for the safety of the citizens. In Eastpointe, they divided the city into 10 sectors. Every ten years your sidewalks are inspected and replaced as necessary. Paid for by the property owner.
Yes, Eastpointe has some of the best sidewalks I've ever seen. Some of the tallest grass, but certainly some of the finest sidewalks known to man. If only people wouldn't hide them under unshoveled snow They also strongly enforce the 6" height limit for grass and the 24hour snow removal ordinances.
  • I'm not talking about "landscaping"; I'm talking about cutting the grass.
A couple of years ago, there was 6' tall grasses and weeds along Moross. I have pictures...someday when I find them I'll post them. I haven't seen 6 foot high grasses. Maybe 2-3 feet though on city-owned property in Detroit. In Eastpointe, the city contracts out to cut grass on vacant properties and bills the property owner.
  • Just because residents are poor, uneducated, and unemployed doesn't mean they should not be receiving their taxdollar's worth of city services.
But...statistics show the poor and ignorant are less likely to vote. Groups that live and die based on politics (such as the city government) either go where the money and votes are or towards the squeaky wheel, preferably both at the same time. Until the have-nots in America consistently go and vote (and not just because Barack Obama is on the ballot) they're going to get screwed politically, and rightfully so. Actually, I would prefer the uneducated refrain from voting, as they are less likely to vote for what matters (city services) and more likely to vote for the charlatan who promises all the fancy stuff downtown.
  • There are many things that the city can do to improve the neighborhoods: Bulk trash pick-up, tearing down burnt-out buildings, code enforcement, etc. None of these have the glamor of light rail, but they are precisely the things that people expect from their tax-dollars.
Light rail looks futuristic (or Communist-bloc, depending on who you talk to) and gets news stories. I'm nobody's liberal on most issues, but when I'm in Cleveland and see the RTA station or when I ride the TTC subway in Toronto, I feel a pang of jealousy. Nobody gets excited over code enforcement, except for senior citizens (oh wait, most of them vote). There are more important things to be jealous about in those cities. I enjoy public transportation, too, when I am in other cities. It's very kind of the local residents to subsidize my tourism.
  • I'd be willing to bet that most Detroiters do not do downtown on a regular basis, but they do spend everyday in their neighborhoods.
...and investment will help keep their dollars in the city, instead of places like Roseville and Madison Heights. I think most Deteroiters will go wherever is closer. True some things are unique to Detroit, but most Detroiters will not go downtown for everyday needs.
  • "Contributing members of society" are not going to move to a city thay doesn't provide basic city services.
They will, if the taxes are cheap. My township doesn't offer all that much as far as I can tell, but my taxes are probably half of what they'd be in Detroit or River Rouge. But expectations living in the townships are less than in the city. In the city, people expect paved roads with curbs, sidewalks, no ditches, streetlights, etc. I agree that taxes are too high in Detroit, but people will pay a little more in taxes if it is justified. For example, Grosse Pointe where they pick up your garbage cans from your back yard and shovel the snow on your sidewalk.
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Your computer screen.
6,099 posts, read 4,817,328 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyK23 View Post
"I like"...."I do not always want"...."Il like"......"I hate".....

Interesting
We like to share our opinions here. Would you like to also?
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Old 05-28-2011, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Your computer screen.
6,099 posts, read 4,817,328 times
Reputation: 5972
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForStarters View Post
I don't want to speak for detroitlove (or anyone else), but I think what upsets some people is the generalizing that occurs. I think it is simply unnecessary stereotyping that creates unnecessary havoc. People seem to lay off me because I live downtown, but then make broad statements about the rest of the city that aren't really true, such as residents being uneducated, poor, and unemployed as if it's a given. I have many friends, black, white, and other that live in southwest Detroit, on the eastside, and in other places that are highly educated, are very much employed, and make more money than I do. One of my friends who lives on the eastside far from downtown has an MBA, another friend in southwest has a law degree. I have a friend who lives in a somewhat rougher neighborhood who is a teacher. All of whom went to Detroit Public Schools and are now successful, respectable individuals.

There are definitely Detroiters who are awful, non-productive, pains in the arse, but the sweeping generalizations are often not true. To have a productive conversation, you can't make generalizations about people. For instance, I could say that all Birmingham residents are rich, snobbish, jerks who care about nothing but money and expensive luxuries. Does that describe some Birmingham residents? Surely, it does, but it is not fair to characterize the entire town as such. Thus, if you want to criticize Detroiters, make it clear who you are talking about, so the productive, educated people don't get offended by your generalizations.
I don't think you can seriously argue that Detroit isn't plagued with poverty, poor schools, and high unemployment. I think when educated people make generalizations, they assume that the educated people that read those generalizations will understand they are generalizations and not absolutes. I don't think it would be unnecessary stereotyping to say that Birminghammers are wealthy, highly educated, and gainfully employed because I realize that that doesn't have to apply to every single resident for that to be true.

"An idea is always a generalization, and generalization is a property of thinking. To generalize means to think." - Georg Hegel
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Old 05-28-2011, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Downtown Detroit
1,497 posts, read 2,017,678 times
Reputation: 894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
I don't think you can seriously argue that Detroit isn't plagued with poverty, poor schools, and high unemployment. I think when educated people make generalizations, they assume that the educated people that read those generalizations will understand they are generalizations and not absolutes. I don't think it would be unnecessary stereotyping to say that Birminghammers are wealthy, highly educated, and gainfully employed because I realize that that doesn't have to apply to every single resident for that to be true.

"An idea is always a generalization, and generalization is a property of thinking. To generalize means to think." - Georg Hegel
Retroit, I think you know what I was getting at. Once you start stereotyping, you start to polarize and the conversation goes straight downhill. People will take offense, especially if the generalizations are sweeping. Everyone knows that there are poor, unemployed, and undereducated people in Detroit, but it's still a city of 700k. In order to maintain some dignity and respect, I understand why some people get tired of hearing the same generalizations, as though everyone here is impoverished, uneducated, and do not work. I mean, how hard it is to just avoid generalizing so that we can all communicate without tempers flaring?
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Old 05-30-2011, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Grosse Pointe Farms
28 posts, read 82,760 times
Reputation: 61
It's ghetto, it's scary, don't go down if you are white. LOL just kidding. it is a beautiful city and has a lot to offer, you just got to do a little research to know what and where and when. Some of the old historic houses are nice to look at (Palmer Woods, Boston Eddison, Joseph Barry Sub, Indian Village, East English Village, East Ferry Street, ect.). There is the Downtown area (Greek Town, GM RenCen, The River Walk, The Dequindre Cut, Belle Isle, Campus Martius, Grand Circus Park, People Mover, ect.). The Eastern Market is beautiful and fun to go to on a nice day a long with The Heidelberg Project. Do a little research on the internet and you'll be good.
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Old 05-31-2011, 08:12 PM
 
13 posts, read 10,673 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitlove View Post
OMG if one more person mentions a "real" grocery store I'm going to literally pull my damn hair out! WTF is a wally world btw? I could care less about a damn walmart, meijer or kroger when I can spend my money at the best thing in the area, The Eastern Market. Which btw is packed to capacity every saturday by the same people who live down the street from those "real" grocery stores.
And isnt it like "green" to shop local??? It certainly seems to be trending in the suburbs... Grosse Pointe, Birmingham, Royal Oak, Rochester...all have knockoffs of Eastern Market. Best food source around!! Grocery stores are kind of wierd anyway...packaged nonsense with 50% chemical content. If youre lucky you can find a tomato chock full of arctic fish genes. Yummmm.......
I think Ill pass on Kroger...thanks
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