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Old 11-13-2011, 08:11 AM
 
24,843 posts, read 31,265,068 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 313Weather View Post
Great, then why are you so concerned about what happens in Detroit?

If you live in Mid-Michigan, it's highly unlikely your taxpayer dollars are coming back to Detroit.

Even then, oh well. Your representatives in Lansing caused the mess their with Anti-Detroit legislation over the years and I bet you didn't say anything about that for the past 80-90 years.
Re-read the OP.

That is the post I responded to.

 
Old 11-13-2011, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Detroit
3,626 posts, read 4,350,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 313Weather View Post
As for the manufacturing base moving south, I doubt we've lost much manufacturing to AL/LA/MS/GA in comparison to the number of jobs we've lost due to the LACK of regulation on trade and immigration, in other words to other countries and non-americans completely.

Furthermore, many people will overlook things such as climate and taxes and regulation if the quality of life is high.

This is why Boston, NYC, Washington D.C., Chicago, Minneapolis, San Francisco and Seattle continue to thrive in spite of their high taxes, regulations and crappy climates.

So again, what's the excuse for Detroit?
Well Detroit has been facing problems for probably the longest but failed to do anything about it. And I see alot of people have also been living in the past, even though it's good to know, people have got to stop comparing the old and current Detroit all the time when talking about certain things like how vibrant downtown used to be, yea of course downtown was more vibrant they had twice as many people and not half of the sprawl they do now. 1950's to today is almost 2 different worlds (for every city). and people can't put down people's hopes by trying to say how it was wayyy back in the day. I believe this is one of the reasons for us not having good public transit now, they failed to keep up. What happens when you don't keep up, you get left behind. Now Detroit has to play catch up. NYC hit rock bottom decades ago and is now revitalized. The thing is Detroit will probably do the same thing NY did. And many people can agree that Detroit will not be the last major city to face hard times. If you think alot of these cities that are growing now will continue to do the same forever, well... people thought the same with Detroit. Trying to predict cities in the future is like trying to predict MI weather. Saying these new cities will continue to "thrive" is like saying Michigan will stay 82 and sunny all year around. And im not talking about the cities you mentioned actually im talking about some of these "new" sprawlville cities.
Actually Chicago hasn't been doing so well lately. Yes it's still a thriving city but there are actually alot of people who don't think that will last much longer if Chicago keeps going down the road it's going. People are beginning to think it's glory days are just about over. I hope not. But half of the city is already starting to face abandonment issues much higher than normal and extreme crime rates. I really hope alot of these cities can turn around.
 
Old 11-13-2011, 10:31 AM
 
2,695 posts, read 3,602,129 times
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Actually you're wrong. At it's peak, a high school education and entree into a factory (with overtime) was enough to be middle class in Detroit, with a nice home, new car and possibly vacation place up north. Those were skilled manufacturing jobs that while rough and not fun, paid well- little required formal education. It's the loss of these jobs that hurt the city.

Yes a horrific high school grad rate and kids having kids don't help- but the lack of a way to earn a good living is what's hurting the city the most. Of course in Detroit if you're not at Cass, King or Renaissance, it's a non-issue, so essentially the kids that want to succeed are self-selected.

See how easily you can craft an argument and not bring race (black or african) into it?
 
Old 11-13-2011, 11:37 AM
 
7,238 posts, read 10,475,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarvinStrong313 View Post
Well Detroit has been facing problems for probably the longest but failed to do anything about it. And I see alot of people have also been living in the past, even though it's good to know, people have got to stop comparing the old and current Detroit all the time when talking about certain things like how vibrant downtown used to be, yea of course downtown was more vibrant they had twice as many people and not half of the sprawl they do now. 1950's to today is almost 2 different worlds (for every city). and people can't put down people's hopes by trying to say how it was wayyy back in the day. I believe this is one of the reasons for us not having good public transit now, they failed to keep up. What happens when you don't keep up, you get left behind. Now Detroit has to play catch up. NYC hit rock bottom decades ago and is now revitalized. The thing is Detroit will probably do the same thing NY did. And many people can agree that Detroit will not be the last major city to face hard times. If you think alot of these cities that are growing now will continue to do the same forever, well... people thought the same with Detroit. Trying to predict cities in the future is like trying to predict MI weather. Saying these new cities will continue to "thrive" is like saying Michigan will stay 82 and sunny all year around. And im not talking about the cities you mentioned actually im talking about some of these "new" sprawlville cities.
Actually Chicago hasn't been doing so well lately. Yes it's still a thriving city but there are actually alot of people who don't think that will last much longer if Chicago keeps going down the road it's going. People are beginning to think it's glory days are just about over. I hope not. But half of the city is already starting to face abandonment issues much higher than normal and extreme crime rates. I really hope alot of these cities can turn around.
1. I agree with what you started off with with respect to Detroit's problems. The question however is, is it too late to correct them? The thing is problems when not addressed timely can get to a point where they become self-perpetuating, for example the poor school, city services, etc. This is because after years of slow deterioration of these items from a slowly depleting tax base, the tax base at large eventually get tired of it and starts to leave too, only worsening everything.

2. New York City is not a good comparison in this regard. In their WORST time, they only lost 1 million of their 8 million people, and none of their major companeis fled Manhattan (including the Wall Street banks). Detroit has lost nearly all of its major companies to other cities or the suburbs and its entire tax base, not to mention the urban fabric that would have made it appealing in the future has been ripped to shreds. Lets face it, New York City is the center of the country. If it fails then america fails. It was poised to be fine regardless of what problems it faced. IT still had the infrastructure in place, from the skyscraper jungle to the world class entertainment district to the extensive transit system to recover just fine.

3. The thing with Chicago however is that it never lost its middle class tax base. The people there stuck with their city through the best and worst of times. Also, to an extent, it also maintained its urban fabric, which is what makes it appealing to many people. The people in Illinois develop in favor of Chicago versus against it like Michigan does Detroit (note the states advertsiement's slogan that's in reference to Chicago's shopping district, Mile After Magnificant Mile). Chicago will be fine, they're the center of the Midwest

4. By the new sprawlville cities, what do you mean by that? I think most of them will be fine in the near future. They're also working to improve their urban fabric as of recent, and most importantly these cities have very diversified economies. Even then, other than the fact that their metropolitan area did sprawl in conjuction with their population growth, how can you compare them to Detroit? The cities I mentioned were on the same playing field as Detroit.

BTW, it's also true that no one can predict the future, but it's the people in the present who lay out the foundation to shape the future.
 
Old 11-13-2011, 12:52 PM
 
2,695 posts, read 3,602,129 times
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You can still buy a 6 million dollar condo of the Ryan or Goldcoast in Downtown Chicago. Can you do that in Detroit?
 
Old 11-13-2011, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Detroit
3,626 posts, read 4,350,832 times
Reputation: 2513
Quote:
Originally Posted by 313Weather View Post
1. I agree with what you started off with with respect to Detroit's problems. The question however is, is it too late to correct them? The thing is problems when not addressed timely can get to a point where they become self-perpetuating, for example the poor school, city services, etc. This is because after years of slow deterioration of these items from a slowly depleting tax base, the tax base at large eventually get tired of it and starts to leave too, only worsening everything.

2. New York City is not a good comparison in this regard. In their WORST time, they only lost 1 million of their 8 million people, and none of their major companeis fled Manhattan (including the Wall Street banks). Detroit has lost nearly all of its major companies to other cities or the suburbs and its entire tax base, not to mention the urban fabric that would have made it appealing in the future has been ripped to shreds. Lets face it, New York City is the center of the country. If it fails then america fails. It was poised to be fine regardless of what problems it faced. IT still had the infrastructure in place, from the skyscraper jungle to the world class entertainment district to the extensive transit system to recover just fine.

3. The thing with Chicago however is that it never lost its middle class tax base. The people there stuck with their city through the best and worst of times. Also, to an extent, it also maintained its urban fabric, which is what makes it appealing to many people. The people in Illinois develop in favor of Chicago versus against it like Michigan does Detroit (note the states advertsiement's slogan that's in reference to Chicago's shopping district, Mile After Magnificant Mile). Chicago will be fine, they're the center of the Midwest

4. By the new sprawlville cities, what do you mean by that? I think most of them will be fine in the near future. They're also working to improve their urban fabric as of recent, and most importantly these cities have very diversified economies. Even then, other than the fact that their metropolitan area did sprawl in conjuction with their population growth, how can you compare them to Detroit? The cities I mentioned were on the same playing field as Detroit.

BTW, it's also true that no one can predict the future, but it's the people in the present who lay out the foundation to shape the future.
I honestly don't think it's ever too late. I think more like the sooner the better. And yea people also said Detroit will be fine, their the Paris of the Midwest, Automotive Capital, ect. Any city can get left behind if they don't keep up.
 
Old 11-13-2011, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Detroit
3,626 posts, read 4,350,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyDay View Post
You can still buy a 6 million dollar condo of the Ryan or Goldcoast in Downtown Chicago. Can you do that in Detroit?
Chicago's cost of living is higher. Not even a close comparison. You can also buy a house for $100,000 in a crime infested neighborhood in Chicago. You can find a studio apartment in a rough neighborhood for almost a thousand a month in NY. Is it worth the money is the question. In downtown Chicago? probably NOT. Because it's full of overpriced... EVERYTHING.
 
Old 11-13-2011, 02:41 PM
 
7,238 posts, read 10,475,993 times
Reputation: 5566
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarvinStrong313 View Post
Chicago's cost of living is higher. Not even a close comparison. You can also buy a house for $100,000 in a crime infested neighborhood in Chicago. You can find a studio apartment in a rough neighborhood for almost a thousand a month in NY. Is it worth the money is the question. In downtown Chicago? probably NOT. Because it's full of overpriced... EVERYTHING.
Cost of living is proportionate to the quality of life, and resultant demand.

Every place in the deep south is extremely cheap as well...
 
Old 11-13-2011, 02:45 PM
 
Location: Detroit
3,626 posts, read 4,350,832 times
Reputation: 2513
Quote:
Originally Posted by 313Weather View Post
Cost of living is proportionate to the quality of life, and resultant demand.

Every place in the deep south is extremely cheap as well...
Well I guess that doesn't really apply to everywhere because I hear even Texas is still cheap even though people are braking their necks to move there.
 
Old 11-13-2011, 03:04 PM
 
7,238 posts, read 10,475,993 times
Reputation: 5566
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarvinStrong313 View Post
Well I guess that doesn't really apply to everywhere because I hear even Texas is still cheap even though people are braking their necks to move there.
People are breaking their backs to move there because they're desperate for any type of job in the worst economy since the depression, even if it's only minimum wage jobs. It's not because Texas, Georgia, etc. are fabulous places to live (and statistics show they're not if you care about quality of life).

Either way, that's crossing over into a political discussion.

My point was the cost of living is proportionate to the quality of life and resultant demand, nothing else. That's why NYC is so expensive.
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