Kiss The Light Rail Goodbye... (Detroit, Honor: transfer, movies, law school)

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

The present can never be explained by the present. Your question is disengenuous because it is predicated upon the seperation of the present from the past. The present is the creation of the past and hence the explanation for the present is ALWAYS the past. Actions beget reaction and reactions beget reaction over the contiuum of time, which manifest, at a moment in time, as the present.

Then why aren't we all living in caves and hunting with bow and arrow?

A person with diabetes may die not from diabetes directly, but complication from diabetes. In other words, a persons body not producing insuline may over time impact a persons kidneys, circulation or other organs as the bodies reaction to the absense of insuline. In turn, the failing of damage to the kidneys produces damage to other organs, which in turn damages another organ, etc. Actions produce reactions. Thus, if reactions are not treated they create further complications. Thus, you pointing out symptoms and reactions IS NOT THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM. If you treat the lack of insuline in the body, THAT IS THE TREATMENT that will allow the the other organs to recover or stop their decline.

Another worthless analogy. You seem to think that an analogy will answer every problem instead of discussing the problem.

In Detroit the root problem is RACE and racism.

The root problem is blacks hurting/killing blacks, so yes, you are right it is about race and racism. Blacks are racist against their own race.

More obfuscation. The ratio of Detroit composition was not always what it is now. The ratios of Detroit was once like other major cities until most of the white folks decided to leave....leaving housing oversupplied and a much poorer population base.

So black people only started being bad after white people left? If white people refused to leave, blacks would all be good.

Then you live under a rock in a world of dillusion.

Yeah, I'm just imagining it. Detroit's leaders are/were really humble individuals, especially Coleman Young, Kwame Kilpatrick, Monica Conyers, Joann Watson, Barbara Rose Collins, etc.

I think Forstarters is a smart individual. I think he recognize that growth can spread just like decay. Both growth and decay need starting points and he is smart enough to recognize that......unlike some people.

And I credit him with that. But, to use your analogy, if someone has severe diabetes and they are not receiving enough insulin, their problems will get worse.

So you are telling me that there are no people living in Detroit who has not been murdered, robbed or mugged?

No, I don't know where you got that from.

Most murders in Detroit are people who know each other.

Oh, what a relief! I feel so much better knowing that my murderer will take the time to get to know me beforehand.

Who do you know in Detroit that you think is going to murder you...maybe Forstarters...lol? Random crimes of opportunity definately happen, but they pale in comparison to crime that can be linked to behavior.

Oh, well don't I feel so much safer now. I think I'll take a stroll down the streets of Detroit tonight knowing that crimes of opportunity pale in comparison to those "linked to behavior" (whatever the hell that means ).

A lot of black people are leaving Detroit because they finally can get housing in the suburbs. Many blacks would have left Detroit a long time ago, chasing the American dream, if many white folks did not see black people as the American nightmare......and hence wanted to keep them out. If not for racism, less whites would have left detroit and more blacks would have moved to the suburbs.

So blacks have been wanting to get away from blacks and live with whites for a long time now? I didn't know that.

Now that racism is declining, more whites will come to the city and more blacks will go to the suburbs....now that Aparthied is lifting.

If "Apartheid" had never been lifted don't you think blacks would have been kept out of the city long ago? It was precisely because "Apartheid" was lifted that blacks were allowed to live in the city while whites moved out.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by Retroit

Then why aren't we all living in caves and hunting with bow and arrow?

You are asking the wrong question. The question is where would we be today if we had not evolved to living in cavs and hunting with bows and arrows? We would not be where we are today had humans not gone through that period of our evolution. That period laid the foundation for the subsquent generations to build upon.

You are purposely obfuscating to not face the facts. You know very well that the present being the creation of the past does NOT mean that things always stay the same. It means what exist today cannot be seperated from its evolution. Where would we be today if electricity had not been discovered? If someone said that the discovery and creation of electricity and the advances in electronics, since, to this day, explains how we arrived in the electronic world that exist today.....why is it not equally valid to explain the state of race realities today by the history and evolution of race in America......and what happened to Detroit in that respect? Everything evolved into what it is today and you are simply trying to avoid that truth because it shoots holes in your theories.

Another worthless analogy. You seem to think that an analogy will answer every problem instead of discussing the problem.

We are discussing the problem. What you want to do is to site statistics. You want to talk about crime rates, graduation rates and other statistics. In other words, you want to make OBSERVATIONS without EXPLANATIONS. Well....you don't want history to explain.....you want to fill in the blanks so that it looks like black people are ruinous.....by nature, violent and incapable of choosing leaders. Its the same old "blacks are inferior song" that has been around for centuries.

The root problem is blacks hurting/killing blacks, so yes, you are right it is about race and racism. Blacks are racist against their own race.

If the root problem is blacks hurting and killing blacks, they why are you so afraid to live in Detroit....when you are not black? How can crime be keeping whites out of Detroit when its just blacks killing blacks and blacks hurting blacks?

So black people only started being bad after white people left? If white people refused to leave, blacks would all be good.

Black people only started being bad after white people treated blacks like dirt and animals. Again, are blacks bad in Southfield? Why is Southfield 70% black? Why, when you look at most school districts, that wen blacks start enrolling in high numbers the white population starts to take a dramatic decline? How many murder and robberies are these black elementary schools kids commiting that results in whites pulling their kids our or not being interested in sending their kids to? I mean, who do you think you are fooling? For the longest one of the greatest fears of when men was black men and their wives and daughters. There are plenty of people who still feel that wey and they try to isolate their kids away from blacks.

Yeah, I'm just imagining it. Detroit's leaders are/were really humble individuals, especially Coleman Young, Kwame Kilpatrick, Monica Conyers, Joann Watson, Barbara Rose Collins, etc.

Whats your point?

And I credit him with that. But, to use your analogy, if someone has severe diabetes and they are not receiving enough insulin, their problems will get worse.

Forstarters is insulin. Forstarters is like those white freedom riders who went South to help fight for civil rights and to make life better. You are like those angry people in the crowd shouting and protesting the whole civil rights movement.

No, I don't know where you got that from.

By the way you talk there is no way a person can find safety while living in Detroit.

Oh, what a relief! I feel so much better knowing that my murderer will take the time to get to know me beforehand.

More obfuscation. The point being is that just because you crime happens it does not mean that its likely to happen to you unless you engage in similar behavior as the victim. Unfortunately I live around a lot of murders but never really feared being murdered because I was not haging in certain places or engaging in certain behaviors. I rolled solo on the dolo.

Oh, well don't I feel so much safer now. I think I'll take a stroll down the streets of Detroit tonight knowing that crimes of opportunity pale in comparison to those "linked to behavior" (whatever the hell that means ).

Well...strolling down the streets of Detroit at night is a stupid behavior.

So blacks have been wanting to get away from blacks and live with whites for a long time now? I didn't know that.

More distortion on your part...due to not being able to handle the truth. Your PROJECTING. Your desire to get away from blacks becomes everyone desire in your mind. Your motivation becomes everyones motivation....you assume.

If "Apartheid" had never been lifted don't you think blacks would have been kept out of the city long ago? It was precisely because "Apartheid" was lifted that blacks were allowed to live in the city while whites moved out.

No...whites needed someon to sell their homes to or to rent out to.....to allow for their escape. They then used redlinning, steering, intimidation and discrimination to keep blacks out the suburbs. Thats how Detroit became Soweto.

[MarvinStrong313]

Originally Posted by Retroit

Define "LIKE THIS".

This is the same mentality that killed Detroit's proposed subway system offered by President Gerald Ford. It's also the reason that this new LRT system was forced to terminate at 8 Mile Rd and not enter Oakland County. Like most things in Metro Detroit, good plans were sabotaged by short-sighted, selfish morons.

This subway thing is one. The plan for a train to go from Ann Arbor to Detroit going threw the airport and Dearborn ect. Idek what happened to that plan but that's another example. Schools closing, cutting the police force, cutting more buses, people trying to shut down a water park ect. are all examples of why people lose hope.

I actually do not like negativity at all, It is easy to let the news of failed rail overshadow the other news reported on December 13th, news that a new boutique hotel will open at the currently abandoned Whitney Building, that Dan Gilbert’s people are buying another downtown property, that a new bed and breakfast is set to open in Corktown. Things will move forward, and another look on the bright side is that people are not giving up on the light rail, there needs to be more outside help supporting this, if we keep pushing for this instead of giving up and saying fu*k it like most people always do, maybe we will get better results. I actually liked the Ann Arbor to Detroit plan a little more because it connected more major destinations as a whole region which is more like what we need.

And another thing since I see it was mentioned alot. Chicago is not a great example to use right now. Lately it has been changing for the worst. Chicago is declining at a very fast rate right now just like Detroit and it's constantly being called the next Detroit. The problems that have been going on in many of Chicago's neighborhoods in the past decade are just like Detroit's. Major population loss, very high crime, many neighborhoods look horrible, city has budget problems, school system is not great at all, gang violence is ridiculous to the point where kids are getting killed for wearing there hat the wrong way, traffic is ridiculous, cost of living is ridiculous even for bad neighborhoods, people are getting killed in front of hundreds of people in the middle of downtown, gangs are robbing tourist in the middle of downtown, there are massive gang fights in the middle of downtown. Much of Chicago is no walk in the park by ANY means. I visit Chicago many times and know many people who live there and I can tell you from REAL Chicago residence that people are sick of the BS in Chicago just as much as people are sick of the BS in Detroit. And no im not talking about the north side but the south, west, and east sides are just like the worst neighborhoods of Detroit. A great example currently would be NYC, they have turned their self around completely.

[Retroit]

I wish I had the patience to respond to you IS, but it would do no good as you apparently believe I am too "distorted" and "obfuscated".

This takes the cake:

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

Black people only started being bad after white people treated blacks like dirt and animals.

[zthatzmanz28]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

You are asking the wrong question. The question is where would we be today if we had not evolved to living in cavs and hunting with bows and arrows? We would not be where we are today had humans not gone through that period of our evolution. That period laid the foundation for the subsquent generations to build upon.

But doesn't every civilization go through the bow and arrow phase? Why then are some still at this stage? Not every past action or experience leads to the present, otherwise wouldn't all civilizations be the same?

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

You are purposely obfuscating to not face the facts. You know very well that the present being the creation of the past does NOT mean that things always stay the same. It means what exist today cannot be seperated from its evolution. Where would we be today if electricity had not been discovered? If someone said that the discovery and creation of electricity and the advances in electronics, since, to this day, explains how we arrived in the electronic world that exist today.....why is it not equally valid to explain the state of race realities today by the history and evolution of race in America......and what happened to Detroit in that respect? Everything evolved into what it is today and you are simply trying to avoid that truth because it shoots holes in your theories.

How has the discovery of electricity changed the lives of people in third world countries? Again, every culture is different and not all cultures are on the same path.

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

We are discussing the problem. What you want to do is to site statistics. You want to talk about crime rates, graduation rates and other statistics. In other words, you want to make OBSERVATIONS without EXPLANATIONS. Well....you don't want history to explain.....you want to fill in the blanks so that it looks like black people are ruinous.....by nature, violent and incapable of choosing leaders. Its the same old "blacks are inferior song" that has been around for centuries.

Yes it is the problem we are discussing, not how the past has created the present situation.

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

If the root problem is blacks hurting and killing blacks, they why are you so afraid to live in Detroit....when you are not black? How can crime be keeping whites out of Detroit when its just blacks killing blacks and blacks hurting blacks?

Isn't the real problem crime? It just so happens that the current population of Detroit is majority black. I think the point is that criminals will victimize those who are available and accessible?

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

Black people only started being bad after white people treated blacks like dirt and animals. Again, are blacks bad in Southfield? Why is Southfield 70% black? Why, when you look at most school districts, that wen blacks start enrolling in high numbers the white population starts to take a dramatic decline? How many murder and robberies are these black elementary schools kids commiting that results in whites pulling their kids our or not being interested in sending their kids to? I mean, who do you think you are fooling? For the longest one of the greatest fears of when men was black men and their wives and daughters. There are plenty of people who still feel that wey and they try to isolate their kids away from blacks.

Every ethnic group to have come to America (willingly or otherwise) were treated like dirt and animals. THe Jew, the Asian, the Irish, the Native American (who were already here), the Polish, etc...they didn't go bad? After traveling the circular details above, it starts with:
1. BLACK PEOPLE ARE BAD and gives the reason of being treated like dirt and animals.
2. BLACKS IN SOUTHFIELD ARE NOT BAD (no longer treated like dirt and animals?)
3. BLACKS CHASE WHITES OUT OF SCHOOLS because?
4. The greatest sterotype of the black man ravaging white women. Black men are great lovers? What about white men being tempted by beautiful black women? Could this explain why white men avoid black people, because the temptation is too great?

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

Whats your point?

THis is the $64,000 question

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

Forstarters is insulin. Forstarters is like those white freedom riders who went South to help fight for civil rights and to make life better. You are like those angry people in the crowd shouting and protesting the whole civil rights movement.

Some are like those who run from the store claiming they are entitled to whatever they want because they have never had it before? Everyone has a role..

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

By the way you talk there is no way a person can find safety while living in Detroit.

Well...strolling down the streets of Detroit at night is a stupid behavior who said this?

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

More obfuscation. The point being is that just because you crime happens it does not mean that its likely to happen to you unless you engage in similar behavior as the victim. Unfortunately I live around a lot of murders but never really feared being murdered because I was not haging in certain places or engaging in certain behaviors. I rolled solo on the dolo.

Bullets have no name, nor is crime objectives. Crime and murder are opportunistic and will seek out the nearest victim.

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

Well...strolling down the streets of Detroit at night is a stupid behavior.

By the way you talk there is no way a person can find safety while living in Detroit. who said this?

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

More distortion on your part...due to not being able to handle the truth. Your PROJECTING. Your desire to get away from blacks becomes everyone desire in your mind. Your motivation becomes everyones motivation....you assume.

Transferance is a two way street.

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

No...whites needed someon to sell their homes to or to rent out to.....to allow for their escape. They then used redlinning, steering, intimidation and discrimination to keep blacks out the suburbs. Thats how Detroit became Soweto.

So there are no blacks in power positions with any insurance company, real estate, and financial institutions? Not sure how red lining keeps blacks out of the burbs? Where have the 50,000 + balcks gone who have left Detroit in the last 10-15 years? Suburbs like Belleville, Taylor, Dearborn Heights, Southgate?

[SadieMirsade]

Originally Posted by maclock

"This," as in "this mess."

If Detroit offered good schools throughout most of the city and if it were reasonably safe, then middle class people of all races might consider raising their families there, helping to grow its population and possibly even contributing to a turn around. Without those things, they won't. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

I have a biracial child, and I pulled him out of a mixed, Black-White school and placed him in a majority Asian school.

The Whites had just become too lazy.
They were emulating the worst of the AA ghetto.

The Black kids were sexualized before middle school. One Black boy called himself Doctor Pimpologist.

I had it.
I'm not impressed with what we in North America have become.

If he needs to discover his Blackness, I'll send him to Ethiopia.

Their men keep their peckers in their pants.
They understand what the word "family" means,
and they know how to say "wife is for life".

You don't need a job at GM, or a Phd in philosophy, to be able to understand all the wisdom summed up by that expression.

Most importantly,
they don't blame the White man when it doesn't rain in Ethiopia.

[Retroit]

Well done zthatzmanz28!

Unfortunately it will do no good.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28

But doesn't every civilization go through the bow and arrow phase? Why then are some still at this stage? Not every past action or experience leads to the present, otherwise wouldn't all civilizations be the same?

It's simple. They were not part of the trade routes that spread innovation and ideas. When civilization was starting in Mesopatamia, people were living in caves in Europe. Greece built off the learning of the Egyptians and the Romans built off the learnings of the Greeks and Europeans off the Romans and the US off the Europeans. People that were connected and traded with these civilizations traded learning. Hence, those who were not connected, and could survive huting and gathering or using bows and arrows......had no need to evolve to a new form of economics.

How has the discovery of electricity changed the lives of people in third world countries? Again, every culture is different and not all cultures are on the same path.

What does that have to do with the United States and the evolution of electronics in this nation and the evolution of race and racism in the United States?

Yes it is the problem we are discussing, not how the past has created the present situation.

If you are not talking about how the past created the present, then you may be having a discussion, but its not an intelligent discussion. A person can have their stomach stapled to deal with their obesity, but one does not deal with the root causes of the obesity it will eventually return.

Isn't the real problem crime? It just so happens that the current population of Detroit is majority black. I think the point is that criminals will victimize those who are available and accessible?

Yes crime is a problem but crime is not rampant in every square mile of Detroit. A person with a good income could find safe place to live in the City of Detroit and could find schools to send their kids to, even if it was private. I would not advise a poor person to move to Detroit, however.

Every ethnic group to have come to America (willingly or otherwise) were treated like dirt and animals. THe Jew, the Asian, the Irish, the Native American (who were already here), the Polish, etc...they didn't go bad? After traveling the circular details above, it starts with:
1. BLACK PEOPLE ARE BAD and gives the reason of being treated like dirt and animals.
2. BLACKS IN SOUTHFIELD ARE NOT BAD (no longer treated like dirt and animals?)
3. BLACKS CHASE WHITES OUT OF SCHOOLS because?
4. The greatest sterotype of the black man ravaging white women. Black men are great lovers? What about white men being tempted by beautiful black women? Could this explain why white men avoid black people, because the temptation is too great?


THis is the $64,000 question

That does not make any sense. So are you saying that the Native Americans oppressed and treated the white man like dirt when they came to America? Who oppressed those from England and Germany when they came to America?

See, here is the fundemental fallacy that is rampant. The fallacy is that every group has experienced, in degree and kind, what black people experienced. What this fallacy allows is the removal of external causation to the black condition. One has to first discredit and control for external factors in order to assert that its internal factors that is the causation of the black condition. Anytime one argues that the socioeconomic inquality that exist between blacks and whites, after 300 years, is the result of internal issues with blacks, they are arguing that blacks are inferior. When one dismisses the external, then they are selecting the internal, because the option is binary. Its an either or. Thus, by saying that every race has experieced what blacks have experienced, yet, are doing much better than blacks despite it, is to argue that the NATURE of blacks is inferior. I mean, if everyone had to run ten miles up hill, then running ten miles up hill cannot be used to explain why your are way behind others. Rather, you lack something that everyone else has. Howeover, if its true that you had to run ten miles up hill and others only had to run 5 miles on level ground......then its hard to argue against the reason you are behind being the extra obsticles you endured.

Well...strolling down the streets of Detroit at night is a stupid behavior who said this?

I said this. It is. That does not mean that you cannot go to Greek town or Cork Town and walk down the street without being mugged or shot. It means, as a general rule, you don't want to walk down the streets of any big city at night.

Bullets have no name, nor is crime objectives. Crime and murder are opportunistic and will seek out the nearest victim.

Look, I know people who have murdered and who were murdered. The vast majority of murders are not random. There were two people murdered in front of our home when I was a youth, at different time. One year there were seven murders in a 5 block stretch of our street. They were all drug related (people trying to rob dealers or crack houses or drug deal gone bad or a drug hit). These were people engaging in certain behaviors that led to their murders.

By the way you talk there is no way a person can find safety while living in Detroit. who said this?

I said that. Who wants to know?

Transferance is a two way street.

How?

So there are no blacks in power positions with any insurance company, real estate, and financial institutions? Not sure how red lining keeps blacks out of the burbs? Where have the 50,000 + balcks gone who have left Detroit in the last 10-15 years? Suburbs like Belleville, Taylor, Dearborn Heights, Southgate?

This is just an ignorant statement. I mean.....there is nothing stopping you from using google. This is when I get ticked off. There is TONS of information and studies on this type of thing and its impact on communities. Maybe that is the problem, none of you people read.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by SadieMirsade

I have a biracial child, and I pulled him out of a mixed, Black-White school and placed him in a majority Asian school.

The Whites had just become too lazy.
They were emulating the worst of the AA ghetto.

The Black kids were sexualized before middle school. One Black boy called himself Doctor Pimpologist.

I had it.
I'm not impressed with what we in North America have become.

If he needs to discover his Blackness, I'll send him to Ethiopia.

Their men keep their peckers in their pants.
They understand what the word "family" means,
and they know how to say "wife is for life".

You don't need a job at GM, or a Phd in philosophy, to be able to understand all the wisdom summed up by that expression.

Most importantly,
they don't blame the White man when it doesn't rain in Ethiopia.

Ethiopia is the only African nation that was not colonoized. I live in Minnesota and I know many Ethiopians....and their women are amazingly beautiful. Proud Culture and people. I know many who are Oromo..... They will blame the white man for what happened to their Coffee industry, however.

[EdwardA]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

It's simple. They were not part of the trade routes that spread innovation and ideas. When civilization was starting in Mesopatamia, people were living in caves in Europe. Greece built off the learning of the Egyptians and the Romans built off the learnings of the Greeks and Europeans off the Romans and the US off the Europeans. People that were connected and traded with these civilizations traded learning. Hence, those who were not connected, and could survive huting and gathering or using bows and arrows......had no need to evolve to a new form of economics.




What does that have to do with the United States and the evolution of electronics in this nation and the evolution of race and racism in the United States?




If you are not talking about how the past created the present, then you may be having a discussion, but its not an intelligent discussion. A person can have their stomach stapled to deal with their obesity, but one does not deal with the root causes of the obesity it will eventually return.




Yes crime is a problem but crime is not rampant in every square mile of Detroit. A person with a good income could find safe place to live in the City of Detroit and could find schools to send their kids to, even if it was private. I would not advise a poor person to move to Detroit, however.



That does not make any sense. So are you saying that the Native Americans oppressed and treated the white man like dirt when they came to America? Who oppressed those from England and Germany when they came to America?

See, here is the fundemental fallacy that is rampant. The fallacy is that every group has experienced, in degree and kind, what black people experienced. What this fallacy allows is the removal of external causation to the black condition. One has to first discredit and control for external factors in order to assert that its internal factors that is the causation of the black condition. Anytime one argues that the socioeconomic inquality that exist between blacks and whites, after 300 years, is the result of internal issues with blacks, they are arguing that blacks are inferior. When one dismisses the external, then they are selecting the internal, because the option is binary. Its an either or. Thus, by saying that every race has experieced what blacks have experienced, yet, are doing much better than blacks despite it, is to argue that the NATURE of blacks is inferior. I mean, if everyone had to run ten miles up hill, then running ten miles up hill cannot be used to explain why your are way behind others. Rather, you lack something that everyone else has. Howeover, if its true that you had to run ten miles up hill and others only had to run 5 miles on level ground......then its hard to argue against the reason you are behind being the extra obsticles you endured.



I said this. It is. That does not mean that you cannot go to Greek town or Cork Town and walk down the street without being mugged or shot. It means, as a general rule, you don't want to walk down the streets of any big city at night.




Look, I know people who have murdered and who were murdered. The vast majority of murders are not random. There were two people murdered in front of our home when I was a youth, at different time. One year there were seven murders in a 5 block stretch of our street. They were all drug related (people trying to rob dealers or crack houses or drug deal gone bad or a drug hit). These were people engaging in certain behaviors that led to their murders.




I said that. Who wants to know?




How?





This is just an ignorant statement. I mean.....there is nothing stopping you from using google. This is when I get ticked off. There is TONS of information and studies on this type of thing and its impact on communities. Maybe that is the problem, none of you people read.

If you are insinuating that Africans were not connected to the global trade grids you would be mistaken.

UNC Press - The History of Black Business in America: Capitalism, Race, Entrepreneurship