Absolutely shocking data!!! (Detroit, Martin, Luther: buying, shoppers, suburbs)

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by Retroit

Businesses are not created to provide racial justice. They exist to make money. Therefore a business should not hire people based on race (this is illegal, by the way). It would also be sensible for a white owned business to hire black workers if they are qualified and if they would presumably be better able to serve black customers.

If they are in business to make money and they are making money off minorities but don't hire minoritiees......then the business should be boycotted by minorities. Don't give money to folks who refuse to give jobs to folks like us. They will take our money but not our applications.

[313Weather]

Originally Posted by nyanna

Because minorities need work too.

Black people should starve and go hungry because white folks don't find us relatable? How are we supposed to find work if this is the mentality?

Actually, that's what I said, and I'm black as well.

That's just the way it is and it always has been. It's not a black, white or purple thing. If you visit restaurants around Detroit, you'll notice teh employees are all African American (because they're correlate well with the surrounding environment).

But it does go back to my point about institutional racism coming into play, especially in Detroit. Whites control majority of the wealth and have located as far away from the city center as possible, leaving majority of the minority folks behind in the city with absolutely no transportationto this wealth they hold.

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by nyanna

Ya know, I am tired of white posters telling some story about how the black people at such and such job were not dependable because they were lazy, druggies, thieves and ex-cons. It's always coming from white posters making these claims so I take this with a grain of salt. Just more lies to keep black people oppressed.

Well, it's a true story. We had black employees fail drug tests. No whites did (I ran the program, so I knew). We had blacks steal company equipment, including a truck with the company's name painted on the side . No whites stole that I know of. I don't know if any were ex-cons (I didn't say any were). "Lazy" is a relative term. I wouldn't say they were necessarily lazy. Most of them seemed to work pretty good once they were focused on the job. And like I said, we had some real good black employees as well.

But over all it was obvious, even to the black owner, that the black employees caused a lot of unnecessary aggravation. I'm not saying that all blacks are bad employees or that all whites are perfect. But even if there is only a slight difference in quality based on past experiences, it is understandable why an employer would hold stereotypical views. That's not to say they would be justified in rejecting all black applicants, though.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by 313Weather

Actually, that's what I said, and I'm black as well.

That's just the way it is and it always has been. It's not a black, white or purple thing. If you visit restaurants around Detroit, you'll notice teh employees are all African American (because they're correlate well with the surrounding environment).

But it does go back to my point about institutional racism coming into play, especially in Detroit. Whites control majority of the wealth and have located as far away from the city center as possible, leaving majority of the minority folks behind in the city with absolutely no transportationto this wealth they hold.

Thats part of the problem. If 90% of jobs are in white communities then the demographics of the community cannot be used as the bases for employee racial demographics. This is why the top cities on the list are also the most segregated cities in America. Segregation create seperate and unequal employment opportunitees.

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

What I think the people of the City Council and many people in the city are averse to is gentrification that does not benefit the people currently living in the city. If the bottom line situation does not change for the people already living in the city, from thousands of new comers who see current residents as "the problem or a problem", all they see is that they are losing out.

I think its different if entities come in with the attitude of being residents and partners vs being colonizers and looking down on the current inhabitants as backwards, violent, illiterate savages. The more things change....the more they remain the same (thats how Europeans looked at Africans 400 years ago).

I don't think any white person who has moved into or opened business in Detroit had the intention of "colonizing" Detroit. That's preposterous.

...yet I bet a lot of black Detroiters assumed that that was the intention of those whites.

Whites move into the city because they like the Big City lifestyle and the cultural/social activities downtown. If they thought black Detroiters were "backward, violent, illiterate savages", do you really think they would risk their lives moving there? No, they would stay out in the suburbs or move to white Chicago or white New York.

[redgoast]

Originally Posted by 313Weather

It's not really shocking data, we've known this forever.

Some of it is institutional, sure. For the rest, African Americans must want to do for themselves and pull up their own bootstraps.

one often needs a job to pull themselves up by their boot straps...

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by Retroit

Well, it's a true story. We had black employees fail drug tests. No whites did (I ran the program, so I knew). We had blacks steal company equipment, including a truck with the company's name painted on the side . No whites stole that I know of. I don't know if any were ex-cons (I didn't say any were). "Lazy" is a relative term. I wouldn't say they were necessarily lazy. Most of them seemed to work pretty good once they were focused on the job. And like I said, we had some real good black employees as well.

But over all it was obvious, even to the black owner, that the black employees caused a lot of unnecessary aggravation. I'm not saying that all blacks are bad employees or that all whites are perfect. But even if there is only a slight difference in quality based on past experiences, it is understandable why an employer would hold stereotypical views. That's not to say they would be justified in rejecting all black applicants, though.

Hypothetically if the comapany had a hundred black employees and only 5 white employees, the probability that the person who steals, comes to work late, ect, being black is much greater from the simple fact the there are more blacks being employed. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought you said you were one of the FEW white employees to be hired.

As an extreme example to show how proportionatlity can distort things: Say there are 20 students taking an exam. 18 are black and 2 are white. If 5 blacks failed the exam and both whites passed, if no one mentioned the racial composition of the students one could easily make it seem as if all the dumb people were black. In other words, somone could say, "Only blacks failed the test. No whites failed the test", which would only have meaning if there were an equal number of whites taking the test as blacks......which was not the case.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by Retroit

I don't think any white person who has moved into or opened business in Detroit had the intention of "colonizing" Detroit. That's preposterous.

...yet I bet a lot of black Detroiters assumed that that was the intention of those whites.

Whites move into the city because they like the Big City lifestyle and the cultural/social activities downtown. If they thought black Detroiters were "backward, violent, illiterate savages", do you really think they would risk their lives moving there? No, they would stay out in the suburbs or move to white Chicago or white New York.

People use to think that the earth was flat. Secondly, people are condiioned by history/experience and the history is repleat with the colonizer mentality.

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

Absolutely!!! The context in which whites and blacks existed in this nation is different. Such efforts to favor blacks pushes America closer to statistical parity while any efforts to favor whites only helps to preserve, if not inhance, socioeconomic racial inequality.

So it's okay for blacks to be racist, but not whites? Great! Parity will be when neither blacks nor whites hold racist views. Hire the best employees you can find. When you give a group of people a "handicap" (preference for hiring), it is an insult to the members of that group who are actually qualified and an insult to the group as a whole that you consider them so inferior that they need a "handicap".

I think Nyanna has a keen grasp of reality and does not need me to explain anything to her. She and I are on the same page.

An area might be 96% white, with a strong concentration of retail establishment, and not enough people in that municipality to fill those jobs or even want those type of jobs and hence need to draw workers from other areas.

But what if a white store does not have any difficulty filling positions with white workers?

Essentially, since Detroit lacks large retail concentrations, the suburbs serve Detroit city retail needs. Hence, just because a community that a store is located in is 96% white does not mean that it is not drawing shoppers from more diverse areas. If it can and does draw a diversity of shoppers then it should be able to hire a diversity of workers.

But what if that store does not have any (or very few) black customers? Should they still be obligated to hire blacks?

In Detroit unemployment is so high that it really does not make sense to bring in people from the suburbs to do work unless the skill set is under supplied in the city relative to demand in the city for it.

But what if some of their customers are white? If it can and does draw a diversity of shoppers then it should be able to hire a diversity of workers, no?

Seems to me you want two standards: one for whites and one for blacks. Was that part of Martin Luther King's dream? ...'cause I must have missed that part.

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

If they are in business to make money and they are making money off minorities but don't hire minoritiees......then the business should be boycotted by minorities. Don't give money to folks who refuse to give jobs to folks like us. They will take our money but not our applications.

And where will they shop instead? It's not like they have a choice of shopping in white suburbs or black Detroit. Blacks (or more specifically, a small element of blacks) have driven businesses out of the city.

I don't disagree with you, just pointing out that it isn't practical. I would love to see more blacks open up their own businesses within the city of Detroit. Why should black Detroiters have to rely on white suburbanites to supply their needs?