Would you agree that Detroit is a failed city? (Novi: insurance, violent crime)
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Let me pose this question. Why are veterans disproportionately homeless in America? Did America fail the Veterans or did the veterans fail themselves to the degree that a higher percentage of them are homeless than what is true for the non-veteran population? What role, if any, did existing in an environment of war, on the battlefield, contribute to the higher degree of homelessness, post-traumatic stress syndrome, and the like, to higher rates of poverty, homelessness and mental problems for veterans than what exist in the non-veteran population? Does the fact that some people went into combat and returned to become productive stable citizens invalidate that higher incidence of poverty and problems of veterans is not related to the experience of war?
All I am suggesting is that existing in the theater of symmetrical racism, prior to the civil rights gains, and asymmetrical racism post-civil rights, have exacted a toll on the condition of black America. I am not blaming the white man. All I am saying is that actions produce reactions……and if then the shoe fits then the truth should not acquit.
When you ask why don't people do certain things.....are you asking from the experience of walking in their shoes as one who overcame the conditions that individuals who do such things live under and with....or are you just an armchair quarterback with a beer and popcorn thinking that he could have or would have been able to make a better play if you were in their shoes...in the game? The assumption of superiority is the only way one could conclude such. Well....you don't know if you are superior or inferior if you never walked in their shoes.
Oh ok, and what would you say to the great grandchild of a world war 2 vet if they said that their problem was that the government didn't help their great grandfather after the war? How would you respond to them? It is no different, the black people of today are not facing what the blacks of the past faced. It is not like that today, and they have no excuses. They have never seen anyone in their LIVES who was an actual slave. The furthest they could go back is to seeing how the blacks were mistreated in the past.
Do you see the Irish still complaining these days? I think it is safe to say they were treated unfairly too, but you don't see Irish ralleys, or Irish awareness month or affirmative action accepting the Irish.
You can make all the claims you want, and you can call me an armchair quarterback... but in the end it isn't the racism that is hurting the blacks in poverty, it is them hurting themselves with their horrible decisions. How is it that there are so many hard working successful black people? I don't see them being held down by the government, they went out worked their asses off and made it, just like ANYONE in this country. If you want to work hard and succeed you can, but if you're not willing to work, don't complain and make excuses for it.
I wouldn't say Detroit is a "failed city". Yes, there are many problems in Detroit. The schools are bad, the crime is high, poverty is high, there is alot of abandonment. Unemployment is very high as well.
Putting this on the table, we need to look at what one can do to solve all of there problems.
Oh ok, and what would you say to the great grandchild of a world war 2 vet if they said that their problem was that the government didn't help their great grandfather after the war? How would you respond to them? It is no different, the black people of today are not facing what the blacks of the past faced. It is not like that today, and they have no excuses. They have never seen anyone in their LIVES who was an actual slave. The furthest they could go back is to seeing how the blacks were mistreated in the past.
Do you see the Irish still complaining these days? I think it is safe to say they were treated unfairly too, but you don't see Irish ralleys, or Irish awareness month or affirmative action accepting the Irish.
You can make all the claims you want, and you can call me an armchair quarterback... but in the end it isn't the racism that is hurting the blacks in poverty, it is them hurting themselves with their horrible decisions. How is it that there are so many hard working successful black people? I don't see them being held down by the government, they went out worked their asses off and made it, just like ANYONE in this country. If you want to work hard and succeed you can, but if you're not willing to work, don't complain and make excuses for it.
I would say "Boy....that GI Bill sure helped your grand parents get a solid footing after the war, so that they would not have to pass on the impact of the war, economically, upon their descendants.....so what happened to you?"
My father, who is still living, resided in the same household with his Grandfather, who was born a slave. My father, who grew up in share cropping family in the Mississippi Delta, until his late teens, endured all kinds of legal discrimination. In my last visit with my parents my father commented that they lived like slaves growing up. He was refering to the peonage of share cropping as I remember the stories my uncles told us about how the land owner would come and take the food that they were allowed to grow for their own sustenance and how no matter how hard the worked they could never pay off their supposed debt. Now....my father had to quit school in middle school to work the fields to try and help support the family. His educational level, or lack there of, certainly impacted what he could provide his offspring. When he moved to Michigan, the neighborhood and jobs he could get were very much impacted by race and hence to the degree that environment plays a role in the outcome of people, its not hard to argue race directly and indirectly impacted my life, by virtue of the way it impacted the opportuniites on my parents life.....and I have not even mentioned my OWN direct experience with racism. My father lived through symetrical racism (which was legal and in the open). I live under asymetrical racism (which is illegal and hidden). In other words, we went from an open war against black people to a gorilla war against black people were no one wears the uniforms and language of racist but attack while blending in among non racist or the neutral.
If I remember correctly there was an orginization called the IRA that was engaged in a asymetric war with Great Britain for the British oppression and subjugation of the Irish. There were all sorts of Irish orginizations fighting against the British. Here in America the Irish eventually were accepted into "whiteness".....after a brief initiation period.
Yes....and you are free to make all the claims you want as well. If there is so much oppportunity then why does the concept of depressions and recessions exist as emperical truths? Why did Michigan's unemployment rate hit 14% and the nations near 10%? Are there unexplainable waves of laziness that takes over people from time to which results in increased unemployment....or does that theory only apply to black people?
I wouldn't say Detroit is a "failed city". Yes, there are many problems in Detroit. The schools are bad, the crime is high, poverty is high, there is alot of abandonment. Unemployment is very high as well.
Putting this on the table, we need to look at what one can do to solve all of there problems.
By not allowing the business to come in, rape the state, give everyone a false sense of hope and then pick up and move to Mexico or China leaving everyone jobless.
The problem with Detroit has nothing to do with race or how people are treated. It is about businesses leaving, jobs dissapearing and people who want to work leave to find new work.
Without jobs the Detroit that existed will never come back.
I would say "Boy....that GI Bill sure helped your grand parents get a solid footing after the war, so that they would not have to pass on the impact of the war, economically, upon their descendants.....so what happened to you?"
My father, who is still living, resided in the same household with his Grandfather, who was born a slave. My father, who grew up in share cropping family in the Mississippi Delta, until his late teens, endured all kinds of legal discrimination. In my last visit with my parents my father commented that they lived like slaves growing up. He was refering to the peonage of share cropping as I remember the stories my uncles told us about how the land owner would come and take the food that they were allowed to grow for their own sustenance and how no matter how hard the worked they could never pay off their supposed debt. Now....my father had to quite school in middle school to work the fields to try and help support the family. His educational level, or lack there of, certainly impacted what he could provide his offspring. When he moved to Michigan, the neighborhood and jobs he could get were very much impacted by race and hence to the degree that environment plays a role in the outcome of people, its not hard to argue race directly and indirectly impacted my life, by virtue of the way it impacted the opportuniites on my parents life.....and I have not even mentioned my OWN direct experience with racism.
If I remember correctly there was an orginization called the IRA that was engaged in a asymetric war with Great Britain for the British oppression and subjugation of the Irish. There were all sorts of Irish orginizations fighting against the British. Here in America the Irish eventually were accepted into "whiteness".....after a brief initiation period.
Yes....and you are free to make all the claims you want as well. If there is so much oppportunity then why does the concept of depressions and recessions exist as emperical truths? Why did Michigan's unemployment rate hit 14% and the nations near 10%? Are there unexplainable waves of laziness that takes over people from time to which results in increased unemployment....or does that theory only apply to black people?
Then I'll say "boy how about you shut up and enjoy your affirmative action." Blacks have had so much help throughout the years, so many bills passed for them and yet they still complain. White people bend over backwards, have to watch every word we say just so a black person doesn't call us racist. Yet you still complain and blame us for your problems.
Also, as was stated in your last paragraph. Detroit's problems hurt everyone because of businesses, not because of "government hating black people". You can whine and moan all you want, but white people are affected too, but the only ones you care about are blacks.
Then I'll say "boy how about you shut up and enjoy your affirmative action." Blacks have had so much help throughout the years, so many bills passed for them and yet they still complain. White people bend over backwards, have to watch every word we say just so a black person doesn't call us racist. Yet you still complain and blame us for your problems.
Affirmative Action was not a program designed for Blacks....like the GI bill was designed FOR VENTRANS!!! When did white women become black.....as they have been the biggest benefactors of the program thus far. Moreover, people were not out figthing against those who benefited from the GI BIll by filing suits saying that the policy discriminates against those who didd not serve in wars.
If anyone feels they have to bend over backwards and watch every word they say......then they are not NATRUALLY good people. Good people have a quality called RESPECT and hence find no problem in respecting other sensitivities. Doing GOOD is only an excercise if ones natural tendency is to do WRONG. So if you feel you are bending over backwards straining yourself just to respect black people and their history....then that says a lot about you.
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Also, as was stated in your last paragraph. Detroit's problems hurt everyone because of businesses, not because of "government hating black people". You can whine and moan all you want, but white people are affected too, but the only ones you care about are blacks.
Well....in order for governments to provide services they have to have to tax. Thus, in a nation were black poverty is 3 times the rate of whites, black unemployment is twice the rate of whites and black wealth is 15 times less than white (see property values).....when a city goes from majority white to majority black the city will be at a financing disadvantage.
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan and Sometimes Orange County CA
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[quote=Indentured Servant;23506885]
My father, who grew up in share cropping family in the Mississippi Delta, until his late teens, endured all kinds of legal discrimination. In my last visit with my parents my father commented that they lived like slaves growing up. He was refering to the peonage of share cropping as I remember the stories my uncles told us about how the land owner would come and take the food that they were allowed to grow for their own sustenance and how no matter how hard the worked they could never pay off their supposed debt. Now....my father had to quit school in middle school to work the fields to try and help support the family. His educational level, or lack there of, certainly impacted what he could provide his offspring.
When he moved to Michigan, the neighborhood and jobs he could get were very much impacted by race
Why did Michigan's unemployment rate hit 14% and the nations near 10%?
quote]
Funny my ancestors came here as indentured servants and after they were freed became share croppers and lived much the same.
I have to go back a couple of generations further, but the first paragraph describes my family history to a T except that they were in Illinois, not Mississippi and the prejudice was class and culture (and language) rather than race. Not all the issues are the same, but there are simlarities. They went through it, and it was little different than slavery followed by intense prejudice. That is one likely reason that my ancestors were willing to march off to nearly certain death and/or dismemberment in order to end that abomination for your ancestors.
The effects of the mistreatment and prejudice is still apparent in our
the prejudice and mistreatment of people occurred throughout history and is by no means limited to Blacks. However it is likely more universal as to blacks, it was not much less severe against many other groups.
In Michigan white southerners were subject to prejudice and still are to some extent. It was assumed they they were inbred stupid hicks just because they had an accent. Polish people too (remember all to Pollock jokes?). Irish, Chinese, Italians, Hispanics (aka "Mexicans"), Puerto Ricans, and in some places, Germans, Swedes, all had their turn. Prejudice is an ugly part of humanity. It is always present and often used to keep down those who are down by those who are "up".
The second sentence describes what my kids are encountering now. Becasue they are white, they are not able to get admission and/or financial aid to the schools they would like to attend.
We considered living in Detroit and putting out kids in the DHSA or Renaissance, but were told by some DHSA parents that they would be mistreated by the other students for being white. This was one reason that we decided we could not buy one of the beatuiful homes in Detroit that we were considering.
As to the last sentence, the reason that Michigan has higher unemployment is because Michigan was more dependant on manufacturing and construction. Mostly construction is what creates the high unemployment numbers. Other places with big consturcution booms (like Las Vegas) had even higher unemployment. It is not an issue of race, it is a question of what people were doing in the place. Construciton and real estate tanked, manufacturing tanked. Farming, economic services, and other industries did not get hit as hard. Look at Texas for example. Texas has a lot of black people, but they did nto get hit as hard, becuase they have undurstries that were not as badly devastated in the crash.
Irish assimilated becasue they wanted to. They worked to assimlate. Other cultures fight to avoid assimilation (many Hispanics for example). They want to hang on to their culture and an independant culture unique only to them and not become just a part of the American culture. I thought that Blacks were the same way. They want a seperate culture do they not?
Last edited by Coldjensens; 03-21-2012 at 02:35 PM..
By not allowing the business to come in, rape the state, give everyone a false sense of hope and then pick up and move to Mexico or China leaving everyone jobless.
The problem with Detroit has nothing to do with race or how people are treated. It is about businesses leaving, jobs dissapearing and people who want to work leave to find new work.
Without jobs the Detroit that existed will never come back.
Racial tensions have factored into this. However, I will agree that economics plays into this too.
I would also add that one thing that is needed is a vision. Detroit can come back. However, it is going to take visionaries, innovators, creators, and look to something more. Detroit is more than just the motor city. This city was one of the stops along the Underground Railroad. Techno was invented here. R&B took off thanks to Motown. NYC had its Broadway acting. LA had Hollywood. Detroit had Motown. Detroit was a major fort that protected the French fur trade. I've said it before and I'll say it again. More focus should be on Detroit as it was BEFORE it was the Motor City. Go beyond the Motor City and look at the other things that made this city. It was once called Paris of the Midwest.
My father, who grew up in share cropping family in the Mississippi Delta, until his late teens, endured all kinds of legal discrimination. In my last visit with my parents my father commented that they lived like slaves growing up. He was refering to the peonage of share cropping as I remember the stories my uncles told us about how the land owner would come and take the food that they were allowed to grow for their own sustenance and how no matter how hard the worked they could never pay off their supposed debt. Now....my father had to quit school in middle school to work the fields to try and help support the family. His educational level, or lack there of, certainly impacted what he could provide his offspring.
When he moved to Michigan, the neighborhood and jobs he could get were very much impacted by race
Why did Michigan's unemployment rate hit 14% and the nations near 10%?
quote]
I have to go back a couple of generations further, but the first paragraph describes my family history to a T except that they were in Illinois, not Mississippi and the prejudice was class and culture (and language) rather than race.
The second sentence describes what my kids are encountering now. Becasue they are white, they are not able to get admission or financial aid to the schools they woudl like to attend. We considered living in Detroit and putting out kids in the DHSA or Renaissance, but were told by some DHSA parents that they would be mistreated by the other students for being white. This was one reason that we decided we could not buy one of the beatuiful homes in Detroit that we were considering.
I don't accept that the situations are the same with your kids. For the situation to be the same you would basically have to exist in a country and environment where you are the minority and your race and class are inverted....meaning that blacks in the country or environment had 15 times the wealth of whites, whites had 3 times the rate of poverty of blacks, higher unemployment and that whites were the denigrated oppressed group that are generally seen as lazy, irresponsible and have lower IQ's.
Saying that your kids MIGHT feel strange going to all blacks schools......well....so what? That has ALWAYS been the case when blacks started going to previously all white schools.....but we did it anyway.
Racial tensions have factored into this. However, I will agree that economics plays into this too.
I would also add that one thing that is needed is a vision. Detroit can come back. However, it is going to take visionaries, innovators, creators, and look to something more. Detroit is more than just the motor city. This city was one of the stops along the Underground Railroad. Techno was invented here. R&B took off thanks to Motown. NYC had its Broadway acting. LA had Hollywood. Detroit had Motown. Detroit was a major fort that protected the French fur trade. I've said it before and I'll say it again. More focus should be on Detroit as it was BEFORE it was the Motor City. Go beyond the Motor City and look at the other things that made this city. It was once called Paris of the Midwest.
I agree, I think Detroit can come back too. The entire United States needs innovation these days. We need scientists and engineers and physicists!
I don't think we have to completely not think about motor city, but it also needs more than one industry. No city can thrive with only a single industry, it is bound to go down. We still need jobs back in the states, and we need to keep people employed instead of these CEOs looking to write themselves another bonus at the cost of American jobs.
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