long-term structural decline in Detroit vs. Argentina (crime, credit card)

[yofie]

Now that Detroit has officially declared itself bankrupt, the following question is now timely: Is it fair to say that Detroit is the Argentina of American cities in terms of a long-term decline owing to a dysfunctional political and economic environment?

[Retroit]

That would be a strange analogy. I'm not an expert on Argentina, but I think their problems were caused by currency and international exchange rate issues. Detroit was more a case of running up credit card debt until you can't possibly pay it off.

[yofie]

I'm not just talking about debt issues. I'm talking more broadly, about Argentina having been one of the wealthiest countries per capita in the early 20th century but having been reduced to an underdeveloped country, and Detroit having once been quite populous and teeming with life but now (to an even greater extent than in other major American cities) the population is much reduced and many buildings are now abandoned and there's lots of crime.

[Retroit]

In that case, I guess an analogy could be made. But hasn't Argentina recovered from their financial crisis? Is there still a lot of crime and abandonment there?

[animatedmartian]

Detroit by and large was a city of success and growth that masked its problems and never responded to them. It was only during economic downturn did corruption and social problems make itself apparent.

I don't know much about Argentina either, but I'd have to assume that there was some element of massive growth or activity similar to what Detroit went through for there to be a good analogy.

[yofie]

Originally Posted by Retroit

In that case, I guess an analogy could be made. But hasn't Argentina recovered from their financial crisis? Is there still a lot of crime and abandonment there?

Argentina has indeed recovered from its 2001 economic crisis, but overall, it’s had boom and bust periods more than truly healthy economic growth. For example, the economy would grow for 7-8 years, then it might undergo hyperinflation or an economic depression or whatever. And its debt issues aren’t still entirely resolved from 2001. As for crime, it has increased markedly in Argentina since 2001, though Argentina is still much safer than many other Latin American countries like Brazil and Venezuela. Poverty has been a major issue in Argentina for quite some time now, though of course it got even worse after 2001, and there are shanty towns around cities like Buenos Aires.

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

Detroit by and large was a city of success and growth that masked its problems and never responded to them. It was only during economic downturn did corruption and social problems make itself apparent.

I don't know much about Argentina either, but I'd have to assume that there was some element of massive growth or activity similar to what Detroit went through for there to be a good analogy.

Argentina did indeed have periods of rapid growth, particularly from the 1860s to the 1920s. The economy boomed (esp. in the prairie-like Pampas), production of wheat and beef went way up, and a massive amount of immigrants arrived at that time from Europe. At that time, it looked like Argentina had lots of development potential, just like Canada or Australia.

[kettlepot]

Originally Posted by yofie

Argentina did indeed have periods of rapid growth, particularly from the 1860s to the 1920s. The economy boomed (esp. in the prairie-like Pampas), production of wheat and beef went way up, and a massive amount of immigrants arrived at that time from Europe. At that time, it looked like Argentina had lots of development potential, just like Canada or Australia.

I think the OPs analogy is entirely appropriate.

Given it's natural resources, economic development in Argentina should be on a par with Canada or Australia. However, through a century of nearly continuous bad government, you get the Argentina we have today. There were brief reform periods aimed at repairing the dysfunction, but the Argentinian electorate could never withstand short term pain to achieve long term gain.

It appears that the Detroit's ruling class, (and that would include auto industry management, and Autoworker Union leaders) as well as municipal leaders (and voters), has nearly always chosen the easy path. Rather than balance the budget, Argentina would inflate the currency. Rather than cut the budget, Detroit would either borrow, or hide the deficits. Both political cultures would rather blame outside (or foreign) interests for their problems.

Argentina really is the classic counter example to Japan. Japan is the example of how a naturally poor country can become rich with (mostly) responsible governance. Argentina is the classic example of a country rich with resources becoming poor-ish through a century of irresponsible governance.

Of course Detroit's problems were compounded by the ease with which Detroiters could move to better managed parts of the US. Something a responsible leadership would have taken into account.

[SadieMirsade]

Originally Posted by Retroit

In that case, I guess an analogy could be made. But hasn't Argentina recovered from their financial crisis? Is there still a lot of crime and abandonment there?

Lived in Argentina during a VERY, VERY bad economic downturn.
Politically, one could make an analogy between Detroit and Argentina,
but on the ground, the societies are like day and night.

The rich never fled Buenos Aires,
which is the heartland of the country.

The impoverished middle class went on, as always
lived frugally,
with diminished $$$ resources.....and a much lower buying power....

their kids went to school, as usual
they cleaned their streets,
people didn't go around shooting each other at random,
just because they were suddenly poor....

The only drug users I heard of at the time were the rich in Palermo...
and a well-connected acquaintance confided (he dabbled in Cocaine)
that Christina Onassis od'd on coke....


Wherever I walked, at any time of night in Buenos Aires (and that city literally LIVES 24 hours,
as people walk everywhere, stores and cafes are open throughout the night)
I got hit on for being a female....
No one went for my handbag....

Once I took the wrong bus, and ended up in a slum on the outskirts of the city.....
even there it didn't look so bad....
the houses were new, quite large, and seemd to be well built,
but the roads were still unpaved.....

It looked like they were being built by the owners themselves.....

The destruction of Detroit happened on two levels....
politically and sociologically.....

Even during its darkest political and economic days,
Argentina's population was one of the most literate in the world,
it had one of the lowest % of dysfunction, addiction.....etc.

Which only goes to prove that poverty doesn't automatically result in the kind of chaos that led to Detroit's demise,
for if that were the case,
Buenos Aires should resemble Detroit,
while in fact,
it's more livable than about any city in the US.

The BIG problem with Detroit has been the racial and sociological divide,
dysfunctional families.....
and the proliferation of drugs and crime.....
ALL added to the problem of fewer opportunities and increasing poverty....


My best friend in Argentina married at 18 to a guy double her age,
by the time she was "grown up", she realized that he wasnt' the "one",
but they both stoically persevered,
and stayed together "for the kids".

They were suffering financially, emotionally, but no one was illiterate,
no one was shooting up, and they functioned as a family whose parents didn't deeply love each other,
but at least they were committed to each others' survival and well being.....
and the future of their progeny....

As soon as the old man died, she married the love of her life.....

Her kids are fine.....all happily married.....
Their parents had made their choices,
selflessly thinking of their kids.....FIRST

I need to accentuate that the economic conditions in Argentina were really BAD while these kids were growing up,
yet the family managed to built a small cottage outside of the city,
where they retreated on the weekends for their traditional BBQs.

Most of the work on the cottage was done by the father and the eldest son.
Everything was simple and rustic, their marriage was loveless,
but the STRUCTURE of a healthy and stable life was there.....
and their kids survived and prospered.....

btw. this couple had no particular ethnicity or race to blame for their sad state $$$
Most of Argentina was White
(recently, there's been a lot of immigration of people of indigenous origin from neighbouring Andean countries,
and even some from Africa)
She was of Northern Italian, and he of Volga German origin.
Both descended from very conservative, hard working villagers....

[313 TUxedo]

Did everybody in Argentina who could afford to move flee to Uruguay, Chile or Brazil?