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Old 02-02-2014, 04:04 AM
 
Location: North of Canada, but not the Arctic
20,899 posts, read 19,378,807 times
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The problem is that people (suburbanite or inner city dwellers) can not be expected to have the welfare of the whole metropolitan area in mind. People are too busy living their own insular lives to have such idealistic and ambitious goals. Most people do not even take interest in their own suburban city council meetings. They are not civic minded like us here on city-data.

My criticism of you is not of your opinion that the divide between the suburbs and Detroit has been detrimental to Detroit...that I can agree with. My criticism is that you seem to be proposing that suburbanites are obligated to be the stewards of another community (Detroit). That would be like saying that the people of one suburb should take care of another suburb. It seems to me that every sub-urban division of a city has an obligation to take care of itself. It would be taken with great offense by Detroters if suburbanites suggested that Detroiters were unable to administer their own affairs.

If a suburbanite moves from suburb A to suburb B, should they still be (or feel) obligated to take care of suburb A? Or, alternatively, should a suburbanite who moves into Detroit be obligated to continue to help out the suburb they left? I think there is a valid assumption by people that it is the people living in a community that are obligated to take care of in, not those living in the neighboring (or distant) communities.

As I have said elsewhere, metropolitan Detroit would be much better off if it were one municipality instead of 100+ separate sub-urban units. People currently living in the suburbs would have been forced to deal with the problems of Detroit proper. The foolish governments of Detroit City would have been overruled 3-1 by the suburban majority.

But that is not the case, and you can't blame (sorry, but that is what I think you are doing) suburbanites individually or collectively for focusing on their more immediate vicinities instead of the needs of another supposedly equal (as Detroiters have claimed to be) community.
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Old 02-02-2014, 09:32 AM
 
3,082 posts, read 5,419,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
Aren't these statements contradictory? Does plopping down a stadium improve or inhibit walkability?
Contradictory in what ways?

Perhaps you need to see first hand examples of where it works great.

Wait for it...

Denver for example.

Coors Field (home of the Rockies) - right downtown in the Lower Downtown neighborhood (LoDo).

Pepsi Center (home of the Nuggets, Avs, and Mammoth) - Not in the CBD, but literally across the street (Speer Blvd).

Sports Authority Field (home of the "future SB winning" Broncos) - Again, not in the CBD. But less than a mile away.

All these venues are within walking distance of the CBD/downtown core. And even if you're not in the walking mood, there's extremely good public and private transit systems that include buses, light rail, and rickshaws to get you there. The venues being in such close proximity to downtown has done nothing to inhibit the walkability of Denver's downtown. In fact, there is a pedestrian mall built right inside the core of downtown. They call it the 16th Street Mall.

Last edited by Tekkie; 02-02-2014 at 09:46 AM..
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Old 02-02-2014, 09:34 AM
 
3,082 posts, read 5,419,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarvinStrong313 View Post
So the problem is Public Transportation pretty much (more walkable neighborhoods will come with that). Jobs is an obvious one but that isn't really a problem exclusive to Detroit (seen SoCal lately?).
As for the Pistons, why Detroit has an NBA team in the far north suburbs I have no idea.
I think some more parks would be a great idea IF they could maintain them. Actually I think some metro parks would do well. Another idea I would like as if they created some type of beach on the Detroit River, having some attractions in that whole beach district and it could blend perfectly with the events during the summer.
The beach idea along the Detroit River is a great idea IMO. I think they have plenty of real estate they could work with just south of Joe Louis Arena and Cobo.

Parks are a huge draw in most other large cities I've been to. Detroit definitely needs more usable and maintained parks.
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Old 02-02-2014, 09:41 AM
 
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Default Indeed

Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post

So beating up parents for doing what by all measures is the "smart" thing to do (higher quality, lower price, much better value) doesn't seem fair.
You can apply this same logic/rationale to us 20-somethings that have decided to jump ship for greener pastures rather than wait around for the "Great Turnaround". Moving away from Detroit, for many of us, has been one of the "smartest" things we could have done for our careers and lives.
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Old 02-02-2014, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,775,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekkie View Post
You can apply this same logic/rationale to us 20-somethings that have decided to jump ship for greener pastures rather than wait around for the "Great Turnaround". Moving away from Detroit, for many of us, has been one of the "smartest" things we could have done for our careers and lives.
Apples to oranges. There's a lot more at stake when there are kids involved. As a single child-less 20 something you can take a lot more risks.

And like I suggested previously, you're either a person who "waits around" for turnarounds or good things to happen, or you make good things happen. You're either a producer in society or a consumer of the work of others.

Besides, you already said you moved to Denver. Why do you care?

I would also add that stadiums and arenas are pretty unproven for revitalizing downtowns. Especially when most of them are built at taxpayer expense saddling cities with a huge amount of debt.
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Old 02-02-2014, 10:25 AM
 
13,806 posts, read 9,642,573 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newdixiegirl View Post
Yes, the state of US inner city schools is universally known. I am, and always was aware of it, but I'm just not one to think that they're all so bad that people should write them off. To do so is self-defeating in terms of a city's well-being.

I think there is a bit of chicken-and-egg conundrum at work in the delineation and segregation of city and suburb. Did people flee Detroit because the city and schools had deteriorated to the extent that mass exodus - and subsequent psychological abandonment - was the only option? Or was it that the city and schools have degenerated into their current "deplorable" conditions because suburbanites chose to turn away?

My experience living in suburban Detroit tells me that the city's conditions are more the unfortunate, but inevitable, result of the latter scenario than the former.

I concur but I am a bit more granular and will use the term "white" as apposed to "suburbs"....not to be offensive, but rather, to be more granular. The chicken or Egg thing was actually a self fulfilling prophecy. Things got really bad as a result of people predicting they would get really bad then behaving, based upon the perdition, in a way that made things turn bad.

Culture is learned behavior. If there is a "baseline" culture that is acceptable to most in America, the only way to learn that culture is through immersion. However, if the people who posses this culture continue to flee when elements of a different culture move in, then the different culture is not allowed immersion and hence they remain incubated in a different culture.

Whites are the majority. In Southestern Michigan whites are at least 70% of the population. In immersion, most people will, over time, learn the culture practiced by whites, if that is the baseline culture, as opposed to the other way around. However, that cannot happen when whites, as well as middle class, keep running away to different areas. To be honest, its the running away of races and classes which then creates islands of hopelessness and despair. When people were fleeing Detroit in the 70's and 80's, the schools and city were in much better shape then they are now.

People did not flee Detroit because of poor schools the first 4 decades of Detroit's population decline. People fled Detroit as part of the herd mentality triggered after the riots. However, not all the herd was fleeing, just mainly whites fearing blacks. The terrible conditions of Detroit were created as a consequence of people leaving in mass.

That having been said, as a noted in another post, Atlanta had a high violent crime and murder rate, poor schools, supposed corrupt incompetent mayors,... yet, businesses continued to invest heavily in the city and residents did not flee the city as in Detroit and the city now is near its peak population (while Detroit has been halved and people blame crime, schools and corruption). The reason Atlanta did not decline like Detroit, in my opinion, is simple. Whites had no where to run in the South because blacks were/are traditionally rural and suburban in the South. Up north blacks were concentrated in central cities as a result of migration from the south. In the South many blacks lived in rural areas where their families have resided since slavery. So when suburbs grew in the south, they grew into areas where blacks already lived. Thus, suburban and exurban area in the south already had blacks, unlike up north. So whites in the south did not have an escape route free of blacks, for the most part, which reduced the ability to run away from problems, which meant they they tried harder to work to resolve problems and to keep investing where they lived....and not run away.

The hope for Detroit now is that since so many blacks have moved to the suburbs.....there are fewer places to run away too and I think whites are less inclined to run from blacks today....as they were 10, 20 and 30 years ago... so that gives me a lot of hope for Detroit's future.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 02-02-2014 at 10:34 AM..
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Old 02-02-2014, 10:38 AM
 
3,082 posts, read 5,419,926 times
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Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Apples to oranges. There's a lot more at stake when there are kids involved. As a single child-less 20 something you can take a lot more risks.
Sure, however you need to justify it in your mind. My career and life are low stakes compared to your precious kids' education.

Not much of a difference risk-taking will make when you can barely find a job in the local economy that'll pay for your college loans bill, a mortgage and a family simultaneously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
And like I suggested previously, you're either a person who "waits around" for turnarounds or good things to happen, or you make good things happen. You're either a producer in society or a consumer of the work of others.
Oh, I definitely agree with this. And that's why I didn't wait too long to move out of the Metro Detroit area to a place I had zero connections in to make a better life for myself (and I still made off better, go figure). I'm a producer in society and I've been making my own way for over ten years now. Not many people can or are willing to do the things I have done. Especially with how coddled society has become.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Besides, you already said you moved to Denver. Why do you care?
Yes, because logic dictates that you can't care about or contribute towards something that you're not directly involved with. Again
Tell that to all the pro-Detroiters on this forum that live out of region and out of state. Don't you live in Grand Rapids? Why do you care?
I actually lived in Detroit's metro (for 20+ years) and went to school in Detroit. And when I came back last year, I spent numerous hours down in the city shopping, spending money at local small business, and doing what I could within my limited ability to assist in Detroit's resurgence. What did you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
I would also add that stadiums and arenas are pretty unproven for revitalizing downtowns. Especially when most of them are built at taxpayer expense saddling cities with a huge amount of debt.
This is a debate for another thread. Not saying I disagree or agree here, I just don't have any actual facts or data to make a case one way or the other. Anectdotally speaking, many restaurant owners and shops around stadiums and entertainment venues may strongly disagree with you. Kinda like when so many shops and restaurants closed up when the auto plants closed up in and around Detroit. Who would have known the lack of 20k+ consumers in a specific area would have been detrimental to business. Furthermore, why do cities vie so hard for the Olympics, the Super Bowl, and other grand-scale events? Hmm, I wonder.

Last edited by Tekkie; 02-02-2014 at 11:16 AM..
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Old 02-02-2014, 11:21 AM
 
Location: North of Canada, but not the Arctic
20,899 posts, read 19,378,807 times
Reputation: 25391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Culture is learned behavior. If there is a "baseline" culture that is acceptable to most in America, the only way to learn that culture is through immersion. However, if the people who posses this culture continue to flee when elements of a different culture move in, then the different culture is not allowed immersion and hence they remain incubated in a different culture.

Whites are the majority. In Southestern Michigan whites are at least 70% of the population. In immersion, most people will, over time, learn the culture practiced by whites, if that is the baseline culture, as opposed to the other way around. However, that cannot happen when whites, as well as middle class, keep running away to different areas. To be honest, its the running away of races and classes which then creates islands of hopelessness and despair.
Sounds to me like you are saying black people have a deficient, i.e. sub-baseline, culture. Please clarify.
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Old 02-02-2014, 11:23 AM
 
Location: North of Canada, but not the Arctic
20,899 posts, read 19,378,807 times
Reputation: 25391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekkie View Post
Furthermore, why do cities vie so hard for the Olympics, the Super Bowl, and other grand-scale events? Hmm, I wonder.
Not sure of the Super Bowl because the stadium is already built, but Olympics have proven to be not worth the expense. You end up with a bunch of useless stadiums and hotels.
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Old 02-02-2014, 11:39 AM
 
Location: North of Canada, but not the Arctic
20,899 posts, read 19,378,807 times
Reputation: 25391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekkie View Post
Contradictory in what ways?

Perhaps you need to see first hand examples of where it works great.

Wait for it...

Denver for example.

Coors Field (home of the Rockies) - right downtown in the Lower Downtown neighborhood (LoDo).

Pepsi Center (home of the Nuggets, Avs, and Mammoth) - Not in the CBD, but literally across the street (Speer Blvd).

Sports Authority Field (home of the "future SB winning" Broncos) - Again, not in the CBD. But less than a mile away.

All these venues are within walking distance of the CBD/downtown core. And even if you're not in the walking mood, there's extremely good public and private transit systems that include buses, light rail, and rickshaws to get you there. The venues being in such close proximity to downtown has done nothing to inhibit the walkability of Denver's downtown. In fact, there is a pedestrian mall built right inside the core of downtown. They call it the 16th Street Mall.
Yeah, I see the walkability alright.

Bing Maps - Driving Directions, Traffic and Road Conditions

If you like walking through parking lots! Walkability means the amount and diversity of businesses in a given area, not how short a walk it is between your car and your seat in the stadium.
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