Death of Detroit. (Warren, Hamtramck, Grosse Pointe: construction, live, shopping center)
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I don't hate Detroit or believe it is doomed based on opinion. I believe it has a much longer uphill battle than you. A hundred million from JP Morgan?? That isn't **** when you look at the big picture. Dan Gilbert is doing great things.......downtown. The city is 140 square miles, one man buying up prime real estate in the most desired 2 square miles def helps, but it will never save Detroit. My only point is the Detroit needs to attract TENS OF THOUSANDS of middle and upper class working people to save its neighborhoods which is just not happening currently.
I don't hate Detroit out of bias, I had some of my best memories growing up down there. I have however moved around much in the last 5 years and seen many other cities. I would love a turn around, but I just don't see it happening on a large scale basis. I respect your opinion and I truly hope i am wrong, however realistically speaking, i have a feeling i am not.
The big picture??? You might try it yourself. Since you seemed to miss it, or I wasn't clear enough, the real point is not that $100 million will save Detroit , it's a given that it alone is far from "the solution", but it illustrates the interest of big players in the financial world. That, among other things, is just for starters and speaks to a current trend of new investment, startups, enthusiasm, and entrepreneurship which you seem unaware of, so you might do a little homework before fomenting a doomsday scenario for the city (OK I know the mainstream media is anything but news).
Pitching a doom and gloom opinion based upon a bit of knowledge derived from who-knows-where indicates that one might have an agenda imo - as many outsiders do.
And we on the Detroit forums who have lived the issues already know that prosperity has not yet reached the neighborhoods - that is old news.
BTW you say Detroit needs "middle class" working people? Isn't it jobs which create that middle class - not vice versa?
I think most people who live in Detroit would agree that major investments and a major influx of people is what Detroit needs to survive, and that Detroit still has a long way to go. That's not bashing or doom-and-gloom; it is a realistic assessment. I don't know why you, detwahDJ, are giving 02blackgt a hard time. You should be a little more tolerant. There are no perfect cities. Every city has issues that they are dealing with, so why not admit them and move on to discussing possible solutions instead of being so defensive against obvious conditions?
I think most people who live in Detroit would agree that major investments and a major influx of people is what Detroit needs to survive, and that Detroit still has a long way to go. That's not bashing or doom-and-gloom; it is a realistic assessment. I don't know why you, detwahDJ, are giving 02blackgt a hard time. You should be a little more tolerant. There are no perfect cities. Every city has issues that they are dealing with, so why not admit them and move on to discussing possible solutions instead of being so defensive against obvious conditions?
Well, wah - a pious sermon on tolerance - and how does 02 feel about you speaking for him? I have always said that Detroit is a work in progress, has experienced clueless mismanagement, has good points, is in transition, is improving, and is not dead. This wads your RW undies, does it? Badge of honor for me.
And you must show where I called 02 a basher - who BTW said flat out "Detroit is not coming back" but of course this is nothing like "gloom and doom" to your alleged mind. Amazing!
Will you respond to this point or will you dodge yet again? Short memory, selective memory, reading comprehension..... what is it? (need more icons for this one)
No, Detroit ain't dead and I continually post evidence (which you glibly ignore) to support that claim. You provide nothing but peevish RW grousing.
Well, instead of bashing each other lets talk solutions. As i stated above, I do believe Detroit can be saved, however I do not think it will happen anytime in my life time. Regardless, IMO they need to shrink the city and bulldoze miles and miles of ****. I love historical areas but unfortunately for Detroit i doubt much of the city is salvageable. I say this b/c on seemingly every block is burnt down homes and empty lots. There isn't many full dense areas of well maintained homes. You would end up with blocks of mixed lots of with 1920's homes right next to brand new homes (not that this is bad). In reality it is probably easier to just start fresh in many areas of the city.
I didn't mean to bash you on the JP Morgan money that wasn't my intention. I happen to work in the banking industry and understand that JP isn't necessarily throwing $100 million with high hopes or because they care. To them it is pocket change, but by doing so it gives them positive media coverage and makes it seem as though they care. Does that **** you off? Probably, it is however the reality. JP Morgan set aside $1 Billion this quarter alone for legal fees tied to a currency exchange investigation!
On a personal level I am sorry, I can tell you really care about the city and truly want to see it succeed. Maybe I am more negative now that I left the area and have came back to see how bad it is in comparison to literally the entire rest of America? I used to do tons of volunteer work, habitat for humanity, ect. in the city of Detroit so don't think I don't care. I'm just not YET sold on the idea they are on the way back up. I think its going to be another decade or 2 before we see real change. The media hypes up every little thing positive that happens and gives people false hope IMO.
I wish the city could annex all the suburbs. If that were to happen I guarantee you large scale change would happen overnight. The current problem is that no one in the city has the money to fix the problems and very few in the suburbs even care since its not in their city/backyard. I mean realistically speaking what middle class family is going to move into a home in the city over a home in suburbs given the current crime, blight, and quality of the DPS as compared to the burbs?
Since the obvious answer to that question is no-one, the downward spiral cycle of the city of Detroit will continue. I think rock bottom will come at about a population of 500k. I think once they condense the city which will push crime more into a smaller area only then can they go up. This isn't about race but no white middle/upper class family is going to move into a neighborhood filled with gang bangers and trash. In this country all to often the whites have more money. Is this right? ABSOLUTELY NOT, but it is the truth. Flat out, Detroit needs white people, there I said it. However they are currently not in condition to attract them given the reasons i have provided in this, and my previews post(s).
Last edited by 02blackgt; 12-12-2014 at 09:24 AM..
Since the obvious answer to that question is no-one, the downward spiral cycle of the city of Detroit will continue. I think rock bottom will come at about a population of 500k. I think once they condense the city which will push crime more into a smaller area only then can they go up. This isn't about race but no white middle/upper class family is going to move into a neighborhood filled with gang bangers and trash. In this country all to often the whites have more money. Is this right? ABSOLUTELY NOT, but it is the truth. Flat out, Detroit needs white people, there I said it. However they are currently not in condition to attract them given the reasons i have provided in this, and my previews post(s).
I even wonder how the gangs can sustain themselves in a city like Detroit that has seen a huge decline of middle class population, with many middle class houses being abandoned and middle class shops going out of business. With only low income people left behind who can't afford to move away, who are living in low income areas driving old cars or not driving at all there are no middle class cars to steal anymore, no middle class store owners to extort, no middle class customers to sell their merchandise to, no middle class houses to break into, etc. In a way, running a gang is no different than running a regular business in the sense that you need at least a middle class population of a certain size for your business to be sustainable.
So, isn't crime a problem which solves itself when Detroit gets below a certain threshold of middle class citizens? There will be a time when a halfway economically literate gang will decide there is more opportunity in Chicago, Atlanta or Oakland. That's the thing with crime, it never disappears alltogether but it may go somewhere else.
I even wonder how the gangs can sustain themselves in a city like Detroit that has seen a huge decline of middle class population, with many middle class houses being abandoned and middle class shops going out of business. With only low income people left behind who can't afford to move away, who are living in low income areas driving old cars or not driving at all there are no middle class cars to steal anymore, no middle class store owners to extort, no middle class customers to sell their merchandise to, no middle class houses to break into, etc. In a way, running a gang is no different than running a regular business in the sense that you need at least a middle class population of a certain size for your business to be sustainable.
So, isn't crime a problem which solves itself when Detroit gets below a certain threshold of middle class citizens? There will be a time when a halfway economically literate gang will decide there is more opportunity in Chicago, Atlanta or Oakland. That's the thing with crime, it never disappears alltogether but it may go somewhere else.
I don't think so. Just because Detroit isn't "middle class" does not mean there is no money or things to steal. Low income people still may have jobs, they are just low paying jobs. Or they may be receiving welfare. And they still buy things, just not as much nice things as upper income people. The amounts that criminals steal are not very much. They'll kill a person just for the $20 in their wallet. They'll rob a dollar store and kill the employees for just a few hundred dollars in the cash register.
By your logic, crime should be highest in the upper-income areas because there is more to steal. It doesn't work that way. Crime is highest where the people are poorest.
Also, much of the crime isn't being committed by gangs; it is being committed by individuals or maybe 2 or 3 guys. It's not like all the criminals get together and say "tonight we are going to target the little old ladies on the west side starting at 10 o'clock". It's every man for himself, like the Wild West.
I even wonder how the gangs can sustain themselves in a city like Detroit that has seen a huge decline of middle class population, with many middle class houses being abandoned and middle class shops going out of business. With only low income people left behind who can't afford to move away, who are living in low income areas driving old cars or not driving at all there are no middle class cars to steal anymore, no middle class store owners to extort, no middle class customers to sell their merchandise to, no middle class houses to break into, etc. In a way, running a gang is no different than running a regular business in the sense that you need at least a middle class population of a certain size for your business to be sustainable.
So, isn't crime a problem which solves itself when Detroit gets below a certain threshold of middle class citizens? There will be a time when a halfway economically literate gang will decide there is more opportunity in Chicago, Atlanta or Oakland. That's the thing with crime, it never disappears alltogether but it may go somewhere else.
OK, stop, I think you are literally imagining what Detroit is like in your head.
First off, the car thing, if you have even driven though Detroit you would have seen a countless number of nice cars and many of them customized. That is a large part of the culture here.
As for middle class, there are different levels of middle classes, Detroit's median household income falls on the low end of the middle class. The average middle class annual income is $25,500 to $76,500.
Detroit's household income is a bit under $30,000. It was $25,000 at the end of the recession but has since then went up. An income between 25k-30k is more than enough for criminals.
Idk what you mean by "middle class stores" but there are plenty of stores in Detroit neighborhoods. Me and you kind of already touched on this subject.
Also, you don't need middle class people to be able to sell goods on the street. Man have you ever been in the hood before? ANY hood? The low income areas are where most people sell things on the street. I can go to the Warren & Conner shopping center and have people trying to sell me things before I even find a parking space. I know a few people who do it and it shocks me how much money they make under the table. Sadly, many of them claim they are in poverty and are getting government checks while they are out on the streets making hundreds of dollars a day.
The ghettos in Chicago, Atlanta, and Oakland (or anywhere else) have no more than the ghettos in Detroit. They all suffer the same problems. And I have been in the ghettos of Chicago and Atlanta, I'm sure Oakland is no different. The thugs in those cities do the same as the thugs in Detroit. Criminals are usually in lower income areas because they know they can get away with it the most there. If criminals were to go after the big dollars, why in the hell would they travel to another state just to be in the ghetto again? and then have to fight with the gangs there. They could easily travel to the Grosse Pointes or Oakland County to score some real bucks, but then they will be caught and arrested soon after. Hence why the wealthier many places are, the less crime problems they have. Also, drugs is a very profitable business in Detroit. Judging from your comments, you don't know much about the hood in general. It all makes since now why it's so hard for you to understand alot of things.
P.S: sorry if I came off as rude. Honestly didn't want you to think I was attacking you or anything.
He's from the Netherlands, give him a break. You shouldn't be surprised that people who are not from here find Detroit to be rather mysterious and will ask questions that we think are odd. No need to beat up on the guy.
I don't think so. Just because Detroit isn't "middle class" does not mean there is no money or things to steal. Low income people still may have jobs, they are just low paying jobs. Or they may be receiving welfare. And they still buy things, just not as much nice things as upper income people. The amounts that criminals steal are not very much. They'll kill a person just for the $20 in their wallet. They'll rob a dollar store and kill the employees for just a few hundred dollars in the cash register.
By your logic, crime should be highest in the upper-income areas because there is more to steal. It doesn't work that way. Crime is highest where the people are poorest.
Also, much of the crime isn't being committed by gangs; it is being committed by individuals or maybe 2 or 3 guys. It's not like all the criminals get together and say "tonight we are going to target the little old ladies on the west side starting at 10 o'clock". It's every man for himself, like the Wild West.
You are right that it isn't as black and white as I painted it. Apparently, Detroit's criminals have become bottom feeders in the sense that they only steal low value items from low income people. What I tried to say is that if you were engaged in say stealing high-end vehicles and your working territory falls into decay so people who can afford high-end vehicles move away, you might be better off somewhere else yourself too. It seemed fair to assume that the huge population decline that Detroit has experienced also involved criminals moving away for better opportunities.
It would make rather bad headlines too: 'Even criminals are leaving Detroit: 'nothing there worth stealing anymore'' .
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, it's a given that it alone is far from "the solution", but it illustrates the interest of big players in the financial world. That, among other things, is just for starters and speaks to a current trend of new investment, startups, enthusiasm, and entrepreneurship which you seem unaware of, so you might do a little homework before fomenting a doomsday scenario for the city (OK I know the mainstream media is anything but news). 
Well, wah - a pious sermon on tolerance - and how does 02 feel about you speaking for him? 
I have always said that Detroit is a work in progress, has experienced clueless mismanagement, has good points, is in transition, is improving, and is not dead. This wads your RW undies, does it? Badge of honor for me. 
(need more icons for this one)
