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Black dysfunction may stem from root causes, but it is not the root causes that are causing the murders, it's the dysfunction. If the root causes caused the murders, wouldn't every black person be a murderer and wouldn't it be impossible for whites to murder? In fact it is the dysfunction of both black and white society that causes most murders (although some are caused by mental disorder not associated with society). Many blacks are not subject to the dysfunction because they have "overcome" and do not equate their blackness with "ghettoness".
Black dysfunction may stem from root causes, but it is not the root causes that are causing the murders, it's the dysfunction. If the root causes caused the murders, wouldn't every black person be a murderer and wouldn't it be impossible for whites to murder? In fact it is the dysfunction of both black and white society that causes most murders (although some are caused by mental disorder not associated with society). Many blacks are not subject to the dysfunction because they have "overcome" and do not equate their blackness with "ghettoness".
That is highly simplistic...ergo...America elected Obama as President. Retroit is an American....hence Retroit voted for Obama.....if he did not....then Obama is not President.
The "root" cause is NOT the cause of murders, but rather, the cause of the black murder rate being much higher than the white murder rate in this nation. The differential is characterized as the black "dysfunction".
That is highly simplistic...ergo...America elected Obama as President. Retroit is an American....hence Retroit voted for Obama.....if he did not....then Obama is not President.
Ha! That's the illogic I'm trying to point out of your allegations...ergo... Blacks have a higher murder rate. Blacks were oppressed for 300 years...hence oppression caused the high murder rate...if it did not...then Blacks don't have a higher murder rate.
I'm saying this is illogical. Just because a person is part of a group whose ancestors were oppressed does not mean that person is going to be more likely to be a murderer.
I maintain that it is the dysfunction of a group of people (partly attributed to historical treatment) that causes the high murder rate. But there are a lot of other factors: wealth, education, employment rate, availability of weapons, drug usage, police enforcement, justice system, cultural norms, etc. Historical oppression plays a small part.
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The "root" cause is NOT the cause of murders, but rather, the cause of the black murder rate being much higher than the white murder rate in this nation. The differential is characterized as the black "dysfunction".
It sounds like you are saying: "The root cause is NOT the cause of murders, but rather, the sole cause...". I would disagree with that. I would also disagree with it being the primary cause or the main cause. Perhaps it is an incidental cause or contributing factor.
I have a hard time believing a black murderer is thinking "My ancestors were oppressed, therefor I am justified in killing this black person." More like "Dis mudda fuggin neega ain't paid me fo my fuggin weed, man. I'm gonna pop him."
Honestly I just thought it was a very, very sad story.
You know, people didn't talk about the Holocaust until the '60s. Honestly. It was considered unmentionable.
My post wasn't necessarily meant to be combative, though I don't care if it is, but it was meant to point out a vast chasm between what we are choosing to focus on and not focus on.
If I was a race baiter I could post about the kids from Dearborn or Grosse Pointe who were recently murdered there.
Anyway , RIP Don Jones, a young man who sounded like he had a lot of potential, was a good, hardworking person and who called his poor mother with his last breath.
Ha! That's the illogic I'm trying to point out of your allegations...ergo... Blacks have a higher murder rate. Blacks were oppressed for 300 years...hence oppression caused the high murder rate...if it did not...then Blacks don't have a higher murder rate.
No....my logic is that black humanity = white humanity. There is no "black human nature" vs "white human nature". There is only "HUMAN NATURE". Hence, why would, after 4 centuries in these lands, blacks murder at a far higher rate than whites murder today, if our intrinsic humanity and capacity for loving, compassion, caring, respect, responsibility and the like are innately the same? What explains it? If our internal wiring is the same, then the differential can only be the result of different historical experiences and realities in this land. Again, its nature vs nurture. One is either in the camp that says that blacks nature (intrinsic) is different from whites or the nurturing of the larger society has been different for blacks in degree or kind (oppression).
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I'm saying this is illogical. Just because a person is part of a group whose ancestors were oppressed does not mean that person is going to be more likely to be a murderer.
Abuse begets abuse. In other words, violence begets violence. I guess you also disagree with the experts who say that kids raised in abusive families are more likely to grow up to be violent abusers than those who are not. Well, on a larger scale, this society has physically and mentally abused blacks for over 3 centuries. Culture is learned from what surrounds you, which conditions you and subconsciously emulate. What society inflected upon blacks, hence, had an economic, geographical, physical and psychological and cultural reaction.
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I maintain that it is the dysfunction of a group of people (partly attributed to historical treatment) that causes the high murder rate. But there are a lot of other factors: wealth, education, employment rate, availability of weapons, drug usage, police enforcement, justice system, cultural norms, etc. Historical oppression plays a small part.
You never say what caused the dysfunction and why whites do not have an equal degree or propensity toward dysfunction. African Americans are at least 10th generation Americans. What is the origin of the dysfunction? You act as if wealth was not impacted by historical oppression......but wealth is inheritable and generations of blacks were denied wealth (which therefore was not passed down) DUE TO OPPRESSION. All the other factors you also mention are influenced by oppression too.
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It sounds like you are saying: "The root cause is NOT the cause of murders, but rather, the sole cause...". I would disagree with that. I would also disagree with it being the primary cause or the main cause. Perhaps it is an incidental cause or contributing factor.
No....if you are not clear what I am saying....let me repeat it. The root cause (the black collective in America being treated much worse than the white collective) explains the differential between the white and black rates for murder in America today. Now, this root cause is directly or indirectly the SOLE reason for the discrepancy, unless one is willing to argue that the innate nature differences between blacks and whites is a causation.
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I have a hard time believing a black murderer is thinking "My ancestors were oppressed, therefor I am justified in killing this black person." More like "Dis mudda fuggin neega ain't paid me fo my fuggin weed, man. I'm gonna pop him."
Lol.....that is ridiculous and you know it. What needs to happen to understand is to trace backwards the persons life. Trace the murders family history and socioeconomic condition and experiences and how it evolved to the moment in time where the individual committed murder...and the role that race played historically in that evolution.
Honestly I just thought it was a very, very sad story.
You know, people didn't talk about the Holocaust until the '60s. Honestly. It was considered unmentionable.
My post wasn't necessarily meant to be combative, though I don't care if it is, but it was meant to point out a vast chasm between what we are choosing to focus on and not focus on.
If I was a race baiter I could post about the kids from Dearborn or Grosse Pointe who were recently murdered there.
Anyway , RIP Don Jones, a young man who sounded like he had a lot of potential, was a good, hardworking person and who called his poor mother with his last breath.
Don't get me wrong. It is a sad story....but so is every murder in my opinion. Should we pick and choose which story touches our hearts? I grew up in the inner-city. I have relatives who were murdered and relatives who murdered. I know many people who were murdered....and knew far to many people who became murderers. When you see these peoples lives and the evolution of their lives and their families....one has a much different perspective than those on the outside looking in from the TV or reading about it in the newspaper.
IS, I understand what you are saying. I guess we differ on the degree to which oppression ("root cause") or the resulting dysfunction play a part. But let me ask you this: If the condition of the inner-city black community is to improve, should the focus be on:
1. The root cause, or
2. The dysfunction?
If the focus is on the root cause, what good will that accomplish? Okay, all the black people acknowledge that White Man is the boogie man, they sing "We shall overcome", and march down Woodward. What is accomplished?
If the focus is on the dysfunction, then black people can ask: what can be done to correct this dysfunction? How about we strengthen family values? How about we hold fathers accountable for their offspring? How about we reject the use of drugs? How about we emphasize the importance of education? How about we show up for work on time and sober? How about we keep our guns locked away instead of lying on the coffee table?
Seems to me the latter should be the focus. And the same could be said for white communities who are also suffering from high crime rates. It would be wrong for white people to say: "Well my ancestors came here as indentured servants, or they were forced to work in dangerous conditions in the coal mines, or they were discriminated against as Irish or Italians, so how can you expect me to be a law-abiding citizen?"
P.S. YAZ, I realize this is not Detroit related, but could you please allow the two of us to carry on in our own little corner of city-data. We couldn't possibly have this one-on-one discussion in the "Politics and Other Controversy" section. Plus, no one is going to click on this thread but us.
IS, I understand what you are saying. I guess we differ on the degree to which oppression ("root cause") or the resulting dysfunction play a part. But let me ask you this: If the condition of the inner-city black community is to improve, should the focus be on:
1. The root cause, or
2. The dysfunction?
If the focus is on the root cause, what good will that accomplish? Okay, all the black people acknowledge that White Man is the boogie man, they sing "We shall overcome", and march down Woodward. What is accomplished?
If the focus is on the dysfunction, then black people can ask: what can be done to correct this dysfunction? How about we strengthen family values? How about we hold fathers accountable for their offspring? How about we reject the use of drugs? How about we emphasize the importance of education? How about we show up for work on time and sober? How about we keep our guns locked away instead of lying on the coffee table?
Seems to me the latter should be the focus. And the same could be said for white communities who are also suffering from high crime rates. It would be wrong for white people to say: "Well my ancestors came here as indentured servants, or they were forced to work in dangerous conditions in the coal mines, or they were discriminated against as Irish or Italians, so how can you expect me to be a law-abiding citizen?"
P.S. YAZ, I realize this is not Detroit related, but could you please allow the two of us to carry on in our own little corner of city-data. We couldn't possibly have this one-on-one discussion in the "Politics and Other Controversy" section. Plus, no one is going to click on this thread but us.
Did you see the movie Selma? Great acting! I highly recommend it. The movie depicted a strategy, by MLK, to get people to focus on the ROOT problem in the south during that era, by exposing the root problem to a national audience through the television. Hence, when the police beat and attacked peaceful protestors.....the whole nation was exposed to the "Root" problem in the south and hence that resulted in a change of public policy. The question is this. Why did America, at that time, not change public policy before the civil rights movement and exposing the "root" problemIt ? Could America have thought then, as now, that the plight and problems of African Americans was largely self inflicted and largely the result of natural dysfunction?
Here is the quagmire Retroit. It took public policy, centuries of it, to put blacks into the situation they are in now. It has taken public policy to end slavery and Jim Crow.....and it will take public policy to eradicated the remaining legacy accrued from centuries of slavery and Jim Crow (what that public policy should look like is not the issue at this point....but its certainly not building more prisons). However, this is a nation of the people, by the people and for the people. If "the people" believe that the problem is rooted in the history of past oppression......it is more likely to embrace public policy efforts than if "the people" believe that the condition is simply rooted in the natural dysfunction of black people. In other words, if "the people" believe that these conditions and behaviors are internal in origin, then they will vehemently reject the subsidizing through public policy.
Blacks did not get into this situation BY THEMSELVES and without the input of the larger society, its laws and its efforts. Hence, to think that blacks can climb out of the situation totally on their own....in a nation that has not proven to be free of the curse of racism......is wrong. Thus, I am telling you that blacks are and have been battling the dysfunction....but it will take public policy to really repair things. That will not happen because "the people" believe that the condition is the result of Darwinism with the fittest having risen to the top while the weaker languish behind in dysfunction....seeking to be artificially propped up in the name of past injustice.
If your house is engulfed in flames......ones effort using a water hose may go unnoticed......at some point the fire department, with their better equipment and resources for the task.....has to be called in. That is public policy.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 01-29-2015 at 10:07 AM..
But there is a big difference between MLK in Selma and what is happening today in our inner cities. The segregation of the 60's was wrong because white people were mistreating black people. The outrage of the rest of the nation was directed at the racist white southerners. The solution was to force the racist white southerners to change their behavior. The implementation of that solution was to require racist white southerners to serve black customers and allow blacks to use the same facilities.
The crime in our inner cities is black people mistreating black people. So the outrage should be directed at the blacks who are committing these crimes. The solution is to force blacks criminals or potential criminals to change their behavior. The implementation of that solution is to require fathers to provide for their children, limit the assistance to mothers who continue to have children without fathers, drug testing for welfare assistance, require parents to send their kids to school, hold parents accountable for bad behavior of their children, provide a high school vocational pathway for kids that are not college bound, quit (or reduce over time) giving people food, housing, health care, etc. for free so that they can take responsibility for themselves, give harsher punishments to those who commit crimes because prison sentences are obviously not deterring criminals, etc.
I disagree that "the people", i.e. the white majority, are not aware that the injustices that blacks faced in the past played some part in where blacks are today. I think only a very tiny percentage of whites would say that blacks are genetically inferior to whites. White people are well aware that dysfunction occurs in white communities as well as black, and for mostly the same reasons. And more and more whites have encounters with blacks who are not part of the ghetto culture and disprove any lingering inferiority possibilities.
I would, however, be interested in what policy changes you think need to take place. You say it is "not the issue at this point". Then what the heck is? Let's talk solutions instead of causes. Throw out some ideas. I bet we can find agreement on a lot of them.
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