U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Michigan > Detroit
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-22-2015, 01:56 AM
 
Location: Detroit
3,671 posts, read 5,515,625 times
Reputation: 2672

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
If I can speculate, three things - first, the end of discrimination by property sellers (which was still pretty strong as late as the 70s, the 90s seem to be the real turning point)

Second, the worsening of Detroit's overall situation over time that resulted in the ever decreasing quality of city services on all levels. So now the middle class blacks had both the reason to leave and the opportunity to do so.

Finally, the last recession resulted in suburban property becoming really affordable, just as city services were completely falling apart and the city went into bankruptcy. So the middle class black families who retained their source of income started moving into the suburbs en masse, just look at Farmington or Warren. Instead of staying back and fighting to save the inner city - which is not something I can blame them for, they deserve a normal life just like anyone else.



Yes, just as surely as the felons can be reformed. Had been tried since the last quarter of XIX century, but somehow the proportion of reformed criminals remained preciously low all that time. Pity, ain't it ?

Unless you catch them young, really young, by 14-16 the mentality has set in.

Only a barbaric idiot believes that a person is defined by their race or ethnicity. What really defines a person is their mentality, and that's the product of the culture they grow up in. It's extremely hard, if not impossible, to change after a certain age. And it's extremely hard, if not impossible, to change a whole large group of people who feed off each other's views. The natural process is that the people who don't want their children to have ghetto mentality, and have the means to leave, leave. Of those who stay behind, only very few will raise above the surrounding culture. The vast majority will stay uneducated, angry, selfish to the bone, self destructive, easily manipulated by crooked politicians, and believing that the world owes them. I don't see the situation improving, quite the opposite. In an environment where generation after generation has no education, does not work, and does not respect the law, every new generation only falls further into the abyss. LA, Chicago, Cleveland, NYC did not "reform" their urban ghettos - they simply marginalized them and hid them out of sight. Detroit is too small, too homogeneous, too broken down, too corrupt to be able to do that. Instead, it's to Metro what South Chicago is to Downtown - the dump.
You do realize Detroit is bigger than Cleveland right? In fact, bigger than many cities that does a better job at hiding their bad areas. If anything, Detroit is too big for the current broke city government to control every single part of the city. That's why all of the efforts to bring back the city is just a penny in a jar in most people's eyes.

Quote:
I don't know what happened in the 2000's to open the flood gates for blacks.
The housing crisis. In fact it ruined many black communities all across America. Most traditionally urban black neighborhoods loss population to the suburbs when the homes became affordable out there. Detroit was a perfect storm of the auto industry laying people off, being a mostly black urban city, and just about everything having to do with the city government going to sh*t. But even other cities that have black urban neighborhoods have declined due to the housing crisis. I've seen it personally in Detroit, Chicago, St. Louis, Kalamazoo, Benton Harbor, and Atlanta. I even read an article saying that most poor people live in the suburbs now in America now. This is why banks shouldn't just give loans out to anybody and everybody. Now it's going to take a while for black communities to get back to normal. I'm thinking 5-10 years.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-22-2015, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
2,852 posts, read 2,130,822 times
Reputation: 4539
I wasn't very clear, sorry. In all of these cities there was a large proportion of middle class still living in the city. Detroit's is too small.

The recipe for any city that was able to successfully stage a comeback was not reformation, but gentrification. They didn't "re-educate" their inner city dwellers, they raised property taxes and rents in parts of downtown and increased police presence, naturally squeezing the ghetto into remaining, "out of sight out of mind" areas. This is what was also being done in our downtown, except the gentrified area is tiny relatively to the rest of the city, while in Chicago it's a large part of entire city. Also in Detroit, unlike these other cities, the non-black population is minuscule. And it's impossible to clean up the city by black middle class alone. Too small, and many are ideologically opposed to doing what it takes.

Also, the city council is a major obstacle to any real change. They only lose if Detroit changes.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-28-2015, 03:44 PM
 
6 posts, read 6,077 times
Reputation: 15
I spend my days going in and out of Detroit homes to visit patients. I have done this for more than 20 years. I am a white female. Almost all my patients and families are black and in neighborhood homes or apartments. I have not once, never, had any problem. And I am in bedrooms, bathrooms and even the occasional basement. I word with dysfunctional families, angry families, and am present when drunk friends come over.
I has a lot to do with how you present yourself, how you talk and interact. Respect and knowledge is key.
And, do not keep ANYTHING visible in your car - it will get broken into.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2015, 12:16 PM
 
7,358 posts, read 11,061,110 times
Reputation: 8923
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
I wasn't very clear, sorry. In all of these cities there was a large proportion of middle class still living in the city. Detroit's is too small.

The recipe for any city that was able to successfully stage a comeback was not reformation, but gentrification. They didn't "re-educate" their inner city dwellers, they raised property taxes and rents in parts of downtown and increased police presence, naturally squeezing the ghetto into remaining, "out of sight out of mind" areas. This is what was also being done in our downtown, except the gentrified area is tiny relatively to the rest of the city, while in Chicago it's a large part of entire city. Also in Detroit, unlike these other cities, the non-black population is minuscule. And it's impossible to clean up the city by black middle class alone. Too small, and many are ideologically opposed to doing what it takes.

Also, the city council is a major obstacle to any real change. They only lose if Detroit changes.
But gentrification also means driving out the people who have lived in the city, maybe for generations, following the NIMBY rule of kicking po' folks out of gentrified neighborhoods. When you gentrify you knock down whole neighborhoods and clear the people out because they're not good enough. Turning Detroit into a kind of extended Grosse Pointe would be obscene, robbing it of all its flavor and replacing it with a bunch of blondes in alligator shirts. We need to be opening businesses in the city where the people who already live there can work again and contribute not only to their own families, but to the Metro area with tax payments, mortgage payments, and all the GNP they would be able to circulate back into the system. Suddenly, there would be money for schools and road & sewer repairs and new fish at the Belle Isle Aquarium, re-open some branches of the fantastic Detroit Public Library, maybe even a new sloth to keep Homer company at the zoo. There would be more people able to afford to eat at the restaurants and shop in the stores and la de da. That's how you rebuild a derelict city without gentrifying. Not that there aren't some neighborhoods that need to be cleared out and rebuilt. But we have a lot of empty neighborhoods that could stand to be razed. Go ahead and gentrify that, but leave the people where they belong.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2015, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
2,852 posts, read 2,130,822 times
Reputation: 4539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliffie View Post
But gentrification also means driving out the people who have lived in the city, maybe for generations, following the NIMBY rule of kicking po' folks out of gentrified neighborhoods. When you gentrify you knock down whole neighborhoods and clear the people out because they're not good enough. Turning Detroit into a kind of extended Grosse Pointe would be obscene, robbing it of all its flavor and replacing it with a bunch of blondes in alligator shirts. We need to be opening businesses in the city where the people who already live there can work again and contribute not only to their own families, but to the Metro area with tax payments, mortgage payments, and all the GNP they would be able to circulate back into the system. Suddenly, there would be money for schools and road & sewer repairs and new fish at the Belle Isle Aquarium, re-open some branches of the fantastic Detroit Public Library, maybe even a new sloth to keep Homer company at the zoo. There would be more people able to afford to eat at the restaurants and shop in the stores and la de da. That's how you rebuild a derelict city without gentrifying. Not that there aren't some neighborhoods that need to be cleared out and rebuilt. But we have a lot of empty neighborhoods that could stand to be razed. Go ahead and gentrify that, but leave the people where they belong.
Great recipe, now show me one Detroit-like city where it worked.

You seem to think that generations of people who grew up never holding a real job, sucking money off welfare, dealing drugs, having criminals as role models and laughing at the idea of working for living would just all of a sudden reform if given a chance at an employment just above minimum wage level ? What were all of them doing in the 90s when anyone with a pulse could get a job ? Do you think that all they are waiting for is for people to start opening businesses in the city that these businesses - and their clients - ran away from in the first place ? What are you going to do with thousands of criminals, prostitutes and drug addicts, mentally unfit to hold a responsible job, angry at everyone and everything ? No, they are not the majority of Detroit's population - but they ARE living there and they are a large group and they are making Detroit a dangerous and unpredictable place. They can't be changed, they can only be squeezed out. They are the ones who are simply unable to hold a regular job, and if you create a situation where one must have a regular, lawful income to afford living in the city, they will be forced out - but you better have an area for them to go to. That's how it worked in Chicago, Atlanta, NYC and pretty much any large city I can think of. But if you have an example of a crime ridden city improving without gentrification, hey I am very willing to listen.

oh and by the way when you say

" robbing it of all its flavor and replacing it with a bunch of blondes in alligator shirts"

you seem to imply that the only middle class is the waspy white middle class ? Not true.

Last edited by Ummagumma; 04-02-2015 at 04:06 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2015, 04:23 PM
 
1,979 posts, read 2,884,631 times
Reputation: 2276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
Great recipe, now show me one Detroit-like city where it worked.

You seem to think that generations of people who grew up never holding a real job, sucking money off welfare, dealing drugs, having criminals as role models and laughing at the idea of working for living would just all of a sudden reform if given a chance at an employment just above minimum wage level ? What were all of them doing in the 90s when anyone with a pulse could get a job ? Do you think that all they are waiting for is for people to start opening businesses in the city that these businesses - and their clients - ran away from in the first place ? What are you going to do with thousands of criminals, prostitutes and drug addicts, mentally unfit to hold a responsible job, angry at everyone and everything ? No, they are not the majority of Detroit's population - but they ARE living there and they are a large group and they are making Detroit a dangerous and unpredictable place. They can't be changed, they can only be squeezed out. They are the ones who are simply unable to hold a regular job, and if you create a situation where one must have a regular, lawful income to afford living in the city, they will be forced out - but you better have an area for them to go to. That's how it worked in Chicago, Atlanta, NYC and pretty much any large city I can think of. But if you have an example of a crime ridden city improving without gentrification, hey I am very willing to listen.
Look, man, have you considered that the re-programming of the entrenched, poor underclass has never been done because...no large-scale, well planned-out, well-funded, well-advertised, well-executed campaign that utilizes a large number of successful middle and upper class professionals as mentors/leaders HAS EVER BEEN ATTEMPTED BEFORE. Maybe in Detroit, we can revitalize a city the right way (or at least a different way) than what has happened in all of those other cities. Most people are capable of change - no matter how poor they are.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2015, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Detroit
464 posts, read 419,821 times
Reputation: 700
Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10 View Post
Look, man, have you considered that the re-programming of the entrenched, poor underclass has never been done because...no large-scale, well planned-out, well-funded, well-advertised, well-executed campaign that utilizes a large number of successful middle and upper class professionals as mentors/leaders HAS EVER BEEN ATTEMPTED BEFORE. Maybe in Detroit, we can revitalize a city the right way (or at least a different way) than what has happened in all of those other cities. Most people are capable of change - no matter how poor they are.
Yup, a lot of people are taught at a young age gangs and crime is the way to go as it's a way to get money quick. It is also a way to get killed quick. The tradition needs to be broken!
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2015, 05:38 PM
 
10,084 posts, read 18,507,099 times
Reputation: 17341
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliffie View Post
But gentrification also means driving out the people who have lived in the city, maybe for generations, following the NIMBY rule of kicking po' folks out of gentrified neighborhoods. When you gentrify you knock down whole neighborhoods and clear the people out because they're not good enough. Turning Detroit into a kind of extended Grosse Pointe would be obscene, robbing it of all its flavor and replacing it with a bunch of blondes in alligator shirts. We need to be opening businesses in the city where the people who already live there can work again and contribute not only to their own families, but to the Metro area with tax payments, mortgage payments, and all the GNP they would be able to circulate back into the system. Suddenly, there would be money for schools and road & sewer repairs and new fish at the Belle Isle Aquarium, re-open some branches of the fantastic Detroit Public Library, maybe even a new sloth to keep Homer company at the zoo. There would be more people able to afford to eat at the restaurants and shop in the stores and la de da. That's how you rebuild a derelict city without gentrifying. Not that there aren't some neighborhoods that need to be cleared out and rebuilt. But we have a lot of empty neighborhoods that could stand to be razed. Go ahead and gentrify that, but leave the people where they belong.

Ummm.....May I suggest not "using one's one abode as a commode" to attract and keep businesses?

I recall a few years back they built a nice grocery store, I think HEB, on the East Side. People were complaining there aren't enough decent grocery stores in Detroit. The first day, opening, they had a disturbance and had to close the store for awhile. I don't know if its currently open now or not, but certainly doesn't encourage other businesses!
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2015, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
2,852 posts, read 2,130,822 times
Reputation: 4539
Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10 View Post
Look, man, have you considered that the re-programming of the entrenched, poor underclass has never been done because...no large-scale, well planned-out, well-funded, well-advertised, well-executed campaign that utilizes a large number of successful middle and upper class professionals as mentors/leaders HAS EVER BEEN ATTEMPTED BEFORE. Maybe in Detroit, we can revitalize a city the right way (or at least a different way) than what has happened in all of those other cities. Most people are capable of change - no matter how poor they are.
Oh, it definitely has been done before. In Soviet Russia, in China etc. Very successfully, too. The lucky few that survived the "re-programming" were very much reformed, at least as long as the "re-programming" mechanism was still in place. Outside of dictatorships, not so much. But if you have an example, I'd be delighted to know. Not one or two people who managed to get out of the ghetto, but large enough numbers.

You can't change mentality of a grown person. You can't "re-program" someone to get up and go to work every day for little money (and that's the only pay they can expect for start, since most of them barely can read and have no skills) and play by the rules and hope for better life that may not come, when they don't believe in the system, when they think that the world outside owes them, when they grew up in the world where instant gratification and disregard for law are the golden standard, when all they know is the way of life they were born in to parents (if they know both of them) that lived the same way. It would be very hard to change a 12 year old who grew in such environment, virtually impossible to change a 16 yo, and what would you do to everyone else ? And how do you apply that "reprogramming" not to one-two people isolated from that environment, but a whole class of people feeding off each other's views ? The entire subculture ? You have to go back 2, sometimes 3 generation to find someone in their family who had different values. Most of these people are dead now.

You can't change them. They are - as a group - lost. Have been for a couple generations now. You need to change the laws that promote breeding for sake of welfare, create opportunities for middle class, and hope that reduced birth rate among the hereditary welfare poor and the increased opportunities for those seeking better living will eventually make the middle class grow and drown them out. Forget about bad apples, we're loosing the apple tree.

Note - I am not talking about working poor; they deserve any chance they can get. I am talking about scum that (for reasons outside of their control that acted even before they were born) never worked, never studied in school, never lived a productive life - and don't want to, and don't know any better, and don't care. Give up on them, shut them up in a corner somewhere, bring back the rest of the city, help the working poor, help the middle class, help the working, contributing population and see it take over and grow. Right now it's shrinking. This is a far bigger problem.

Last edited by Ummagumma; 04-02-2015 at 10:06 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-03-2015, 12:51 AM
 
Location: Detroit
3,671 posts, read 5,515,625 times
Reputation: 2672
Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneCounty View Post
Yup, a lot of people are taught at a young age gangs and crime is the way to go as it's a way to get money quick. It is also a way to get killed quick. The tradition needs to be broken!
Exactly, I already see some of the next generation and it is not pretty. Freaking 5 year olds (and this is a true example) calling people "thots" and "ho*s" and their parents not doing sh*t but saying "stop". Kids not even 7 years old talking about "7 mile". I know young parents who let their kids act up all the time, talking about how their little 6 or 7 year old child won't listen to them. I just hope and pray that they won't become a problem I will have to deal with in 10 years. And what's even worse is the young women in my generation wanting to date thugs, especially when they have kids who is going to be exposed to the street life from their clown ass step father. I see it and it is seriously sad. These mothers have no respect for themselves or their kids obviously to put them in that environment. And when they grow up to be raised by the streets, they will turn around complaining when they become a victim of a crime of some teen who was probably raised the same way as your child. This needs to STOP!
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Michigan > Detroit

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:26 PM.

© 2005-2023, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top