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Old 04-20-2015, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Detroit
3,671 posts, read 5,506,461 times
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Quote:
Also, a person making $120k with their skill in Detroit would likely be making close to 2x as much in SF or Seattle.
I don't think so, in fact it's likely you will probably make more in Detroit if you don't have a college degree and less if you do have one. Everything ain't for everybody. But there is no city on average making twice as much as Detroit, even the high COL cities aren't even close to 2x average Detroit pay.

Highest-income metropolitan statistical areas in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
San Francisco–Oakland–San Jose, California CMSA 7,239,362 $63,024
Seattle–Tacoma–Bellevue, Washington CMSA 3,554,760 $50,733
Detroit–Ann Arbor–Flint, Michigan CMSA 5,456,428 $49,160

Seattle on Average makes only $1k-$2k more. SF makes $14k which is alot, they are the highest in the nation. But look up the income to COL ratio, some websites lets you compare them against other cities. One time I compared Detroit to SF and it said you need to make 100K a year in SF to live like your making 60K a year in Detroit. So even a $14K raise doesn't even sound so good after that.
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Old 04-20-2015, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
2,852 posts, read 2,126,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS313 View Post
I don't think so, in fact it's likely you will probably make more in Detroit if you don't have a college degree and less if you do have one. Everything ain't for everybody. But there is no city on average making twice as much as Detroit, even the high COL cities aren't even close to 2x average Detroit pay.

Highest-income metropolitan statistical areas in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
San Francisco–Oakland–San Jose, California CMSA 7,239,362 $63,024
Seattle–Tacoma–Bellevue, Washington CMSA 3,554,760 $50,733
Detroit–Ann Arbor–Flint, Michigan CMSA 5,456,428 $49,160

Seattle on Average makes only $1k-$2k more. SF makes $14k which is alot, they are the highest in the nation. But look up the income to COL ratio, some websites lets you compare them against other cities. One time I compared Detroit to SF and it said you need to make 100K a year in SF to live like your making 60K a year in Detroit. So even a $14K raise doesn't even sound so good after that.
I am talking about in demand jobs for people with good degrees.

Someone with a Master's in Computer Science can work for Ford in Detroit or for Microsoft in Seattle, where do you think the pay is better ? Just look at profits.

Same person working for Google in California, I bet they will not just get $14k more. Actually I know a few people in such positions, and I know someone who quit job at Ford and moved to CA, he was making very good money at Ford but is making almost 2x that in Silicon valley.

So here goes your A-list.

B-list, i.e. people with good degrees but not cream of the crop (i.e. not from best schools or in super high demand fields) will likely be closer in pay, but still get better pay in more expensive areas, simply because the firms have to attract talent and it's hard to do without adequate pay. If you have to chose between a huge house in the sticks or a decent but smaller condo in some hip downtown, it's one thing, but if you can only afford some crappy apartment, you likely won't move. So they will have to pay you enough to afford that kind of trade off. The bottom line is, if you're marketable, they have to attract you somehow.

This leaves People who don't have highly marketable skills, or no degree at all. They will be paid accordingly, and will likely be better off staying here. They are not high on companies' lists.

Besides, that's the extreme, not everyone is going to high cost areas, a lot of people are migrating South or Southwest for climate, as long as the jobs are there.

As I said - I know many people who left MI after college. First my friends when we adds young, then older friends' kids. They left for California, or Colorado, or NYC, or South, one ended up in Minneapolis. The only people who stayed here were from the very start preparing for jobs in auto industry,
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Old 04-21-2015, 07:43 AM
 
2,209 posts, read 3,274,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
I am talking about in demand jobs for people with good degrees.

Someone with a Master's in Computer Science can work for Ford in Detroit or for Microsoft in Seattle, where do you think the pay is better ? Just look at profits.

Same person working for Google in California, I bet they will not just get $14k more. Actually I know a few people in such positions, and I know someone who quit job at Ford and moved to CA, he was making very good money at Ford but is making almost 2x that in Silicon valley.

So here goes your A-list.

B-list, i.e. people with good degrees but not cream of the crop (i.e. not from best schools or in super high demand fields) will likely be closer in pay, but still get better pay in more expensive areas, simply because the firms have to attract talent and it's hard to do without adequate pay. If you have to chose between a huge house in the sticks or a decent but smaller condo in some hip downtown, it's one thing, but if you can only afford some crappy apartment, you likely won't move. So they will have to pay you enough to afford that kind of trade off. The bottom line is, if you're marketable, they have to attract you somehow.

This leaves People who don't have highly marketable skills, or no degree at all. They will be paid accordingly, and will likely be better off staying here. They are not high on companies' lists.

Besides, that's the extreme, not everyone is going to high cost areas, a lot of people are migrating South or Southwest for climate, as long as the jobs are there.

As I said - I know many people who left MI after college. First my friends when we adds young, then older friends' kids. They left for California, or Colorado, or NYC, or South, one ended up in Minneapolis. The only people who stayed here were from the very start preparing for jobs in auto industry,
Yes. People who graduate from the top schools with the most marketable degrees end up at the top firms in the best cities. That's been happening for quite a while now.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
2,852 posts, read 2,126,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Digby Sellers View Post
Yes. People who graduate from the top schools with the most marketable degrees end up at the top firms in the best cities. That's been happening for quite a while now.
Yes, and the problem with Detroit is that it's not on the list of the best cities.

25-30 years ago, it probably wasn't either. But back then, the infrastructure was in a better shape, and the local job market for people with certain degrees was in a far better shape. So while not too many Harvard grads would be dreaming of going to Detroit, quite a few people from good colleges all across the country were coming here to work in the automotive field. Back then, I don't recall Atlanta being high on anyone's list either.

Now, the auto industry went through massive downsizing, Detroit infrastructure is falling apart, and Atlanta is booming.

Some cities went up on that desirability list. Detroit went down. A city must have something to attract the successful young people. Not just the low cost of living (which is not really low, again look at Atlanta - it was cheaper until recently, and probably is on par now).

Michigan is not a cheap state to live in, period. I can rent a nice two bedroom beachfornt condo in an upscale resort area in Florida for same - often less - than I would have to pay for a small cabin with no air conditioning near some cold lake in MI (e.g. Higgins lake). MI is not as expensive as Northeast or West coast, but it's not cheap.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:15 AM
 
173 posts, read 384,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Digby Sellers View Post
Yes. People who graduate from the top schools with the most marketable degrees end up at the top firms in the best cities. That's been happening for quite a while now.
I've seen that Michigan has one of the highest rates of college graduate output, while having one of the lowest rates of graduate retention in-state.
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Syracuse, New York
3,121 posts, read 2,934,791 times
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The problem is helicopter parenting. Parents have barely given their kids confidence to move out of the basement, much less move to a city with the reputation of Detroit.

Because of this, young adults will choose "safer" cities, COL be damned.

Instead of worrying about the Millennials, who pretty much have no spending money anyways, you should embrace the slightly older residents who are defecting from the "cool cities". They're the ones most likely to think Detroit is currently like Austin or Portland was "back in the day".

Last edited by SyraBrian; 04-21-2015 at 10:39 AM.. Reason: add stuff
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:34 AM
 
2,209 posts, read 3,274,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
Yes, and the problem with Detroit is that it's not on the list of the best cities.

25-30 years ago, it probably wasn't either. But back then, the infrastructure was in a better shape, and the local job market for people with certain degrees was in a far better shape. So while not too many Harvard grads would be dreaming of going to Detroit, quite a few people from good colleges all across the country were coming here to work in the automotive field. Back then, I don't recall Atlanta being high on anyone's list either.

Now, the auto industry went through massive downsizing, Detroit infrastructure is falling apart, and Atlanta is booming.

Some cities went up on that desirability list. Detroit went down. A city must have something to attract the successful young people. Not just the low cost of living (which is not really low, again look at Atlanta - it was cheaper until recently, and probably is on par now).

Michigan is not a cheap state to live in, period. I can rent a nice two bedroom beachfornt condo in an upscale resort area in Florida for same - often less - than I would have to pay for a small cabin with no air conditioning near some cold lake in MI (e.g. Higgins lake). MI is not as expensive as Northeast or West coast, but it's not cheap.
I'm not saying it's on the list of best cities. My original argument was that you can't compare the area in a vacuum to world class cities like SF, NYC and Boston. There are plenty of other factors that go into it. And, yes, the autos and suppliers are still hiring top talent. They wouldn't be in the position they are in if they couldn't recruit.
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Old 04-21-2015, 11:04 AM
 
2,115 posts, read 5,131,297 times
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I am certainly intrigued by this thread & I agree with a lot of the replies on here. I think that Metro Detroit is alright if all you want is a purely suburban existence with an occasional trip to the city (and provided that you are gainfully employed, ideally in engineering / the auto industry or in healthcare). The affluent white picket fence type suburbs such as Northville, Rochester Hills or even Bloomfield Hills or Grosse Pointe are definitely cheaper than their counterparts in the suburbs of Chicago or NYC.

That being said, the city itself leaves a lot to be desired if you're looking for the amenities of these other world class cities. Plus on top of all of that segregation is pretty bad & the weather is awful in the winter.
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Old 04-21-2015, 11:13 AM
 
2,209 posts, read 3,274,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reppin_the_847 View Post
That being said, the city itself leaves a lot to be desired if you're looking for the amenities of these other world class cities.
Yes. Of course. I don't think you'll find ANYONE that lives here (maybe a few Quicken employees) that would argue that Detroit outclasses San Francisco. That's why they're called world class cities. But other factors matter, and you can't compare locations in a vacuum.
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Old 04-21-2015, 11:26 AM
 
2,115 posts, read 5,131,297 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Digby Sellers View Post
Yes. Of course. I don't think you'll find ANYONE that lives here (maybe a few Quicken employees) that would argue that Detroit outclasses San Francisco. That's why they're called world class cities. But other factors matter, and you can't compare locations in a vacuum.
True. Obviously most people from Metro Detroit or folks that have spent time either extensively visiting the region or living in the region understand that.
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