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Old 12-20-2015, 02:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pojack View Post
And again, perhaps racial superiority/inferiority is true. Perhaps not. Nobody knows for sure.
It's not about what we know.....but what we believe. Isms have never been rooted in what people know, but rather, what they they believe.
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Old 12-20-2015, 05:06 PM
 
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We know from what we experience too. The problem is that you are oblivious to the fact that whites do not look at blacks as monolithic. Whites have an unfavorable opinion of "trailer trash" white behavior as much as "ghetto" black behavior. The problem is that in the Detroit area, there is a huge underclass of blacks who speak, dress, and comport themselves in a way in which the majority of whites want to be as far away as possible. If you can't understand that...too bad. You are not in a position to make people accept such cultural traits. I'm unsure what you want from whites or non-blacks in the face of ghetto behavior...????????????? Do you want them to overlook it and ignore it and have no problem being immersed in it? Do you want them to not look at it as an inferior way of behavior?

That being said, I am not oblivious myself of biases people may have against blacks who are educated and in the workforce side by side with whites. People sometimes gravitate or feel more comfortable with working with people of their own race, or have unconscious biases of blacks. But the biggest problem confronting blacks is not white attitudes, but the total breakdown of the black family and a lack of emphasis on education and social responsibility. Blacks who have been able to educate themselves and become economically independent have moved in mass and record numbers to live in white areas around metro Detroit. Go preach to those people first.
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Old 12-20-2015, 06:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Republic of Michigan View Post
We know from what we experience too. The problem is that you are oblivious to the fact that whites do not look at blacks as monolithic. Whites have an unfavorable opinion of "trailer trash" white behavior as much as "ghetto" black behavior. The problem is that in the Detroit area, there is a huge underclass of blacks who speak, dress, and comport themselves in a way in which the majority of whites want to be as far away as possible. If you can't understand that...too bad. You are not in a position to make people accept such cultural traits. I'm unsure what you want from whites or non-blacks in the face of ghetto behavior...????????????? Do you want them to overlook it and ignore it and have no problem being immersed in it? Do you want them to not look at it as an inferior way of behavior?
You can never experience enough, in your lifetime, to KNOW more than 1% of the 1 million plus blacks in SE Michigan. Your EXPERIENCE is anecdotal, as well as a sampling error, when drawing conclusions about the whole. Secondly, I do not believe that white people see blacks as monolithic, I do believe, however, that whites, blacks, Asians, Hispanics....humans....have general perceptions about groups, races, religions, etc, as a general rule. Thirdly, how are you the spokesman for what white people think? You are the one acting as if the white population is a monolith and you are a microcosm there of, given that you feel qualified to tell me what the majority of white people, who you never met (which is 99.99%), are thinking. Excuse my incredulous but I also find that to be a sampling error. How do you know what the majority of white people think? I certainly do not know what the majority of black people think and there are a lot less black people to know than there are whites in America and SE Michigan.

If whites wanted to be as far away as possible.....they would not be gentrifying the heart of an 83% black city. Remember what started this topic. It was not me. It was the poster who pointed out how black citizens are not experiencing the benefit of the rebirth of the city to the same degree whites are, paraphrasing. That does not met your argument that whites are trying to move as far away from the black underclass as possible....because that would be 24 mile and not Midtown. Wherever whites choose to move or desire increases in value because whites have most of the money and wealth and their demand....or lack there of, can make or break an area through the market forces of supply and demand.

Quote:
That being said, I am not oblivious myself of biases people may have against blacks who are educated and in the workforce side by side with whites. People sometimes gravitate or feel more comfortable with working with people of their own race, or have unconscious biases of blacks. But the biggest problem confronting blacks is not white attitudes, but the total breakdown of the black family and a lack of emphasis on education and social responsibility. Blacks who have been able to educate themselves and become economically independent have moved in mass and record numbers to live in white areas around metro Detroit. Go preach to those people first.
Every action or phenomenon is a reaction as every action causes a reaction. You talk about racism and bias, which have existed against blacks for well over 300 years.....however....you don't talk of any reactions this had upon blacks. To say that the biggest problem of blacks is the break down of the black family misses the mark, because it does not address the actions that created the breakdown. Maybe the black family broke down from the impact of a racist society. Keep in mind also that white out of wedlock births went from about 3% in the 1950's to about 30% today, while the black rate went from 24% to 75% today. Yet, if the breakdown of the family is the root of most socioeconomic dysfunction, where is the evidence of the socioeconomic dysfunction in the white community which would be the resultant of a 1000% increase in white out of wedlock births since the 50's? Has the murder rate gone up for whites since then? Has the poverty rate gone up for whites since then? Had educational attainment of whites gone done? Nope, nope, nope and nope? Yet, the root of all dysfunction in the black community is said to be broken families....when the white socioeconomic condition, represented by statistics, appears impervious to the 1000% increase in the dysfunction of the white family unit. Again, excuse my incredulous. Whatever was happening in 1950, in regards to race, which resulted in blacks having 24% and whites 3%, is the root cause of the discrepancy between the black family and white family.....because since that time the skew has only been conserved....and the rate of decline has actually increased faster in the white population since then.....but with no evidence of it causing socioeconomic decline in the white community.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 12-20-2015 at 07:43 PM..
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Old 12-20-2015, 08:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
You can never experience enough, in your lifetime, to KNOW more than 1% of the 1 million plus blacks in SE Michigan. Your EXPERIENCE is anecdotal, as well as a sampling error, when drawing conclusions about the whole. Secondly, I do not believe that white people see blacks as monolithic, I do believe, however, that whites, blacks, Asians, Hispanics....humans....have general perceptions about groups, races, religions, etc, as a general rule. Thirdly, how are you the spokesman for what white people think? You are the one acting as if the white population is a monolith and you are a microcosm there of, given that you feel qualified to tell me what the majority of white people, who you never met (which is 99.99%), are thinking. Excuse my incredulous but I also find that to be a sampling error. How do you know what the majority of white people think? I certainly do not know what the majority of black people think and there are a lot less black people to know than there are whites in America and SE Michigan.

If whites wanted to be as far away as possible.....they would not be gentrifying the heart of an 83% black city. Remember what started this topic. It was not me. It was the poster who pointed out how black citizens are not experiencing the benefit of the rebirth of the city to the same degree whites are, paraphrasing. That does not met your argument that whites are trying to move as far away from the black underclass as possible....because that would be 24 mile and not Midtown. Wherever whites choose to move or desire increases in value because whites have most of the money and wealth and their demand....or lack there of, can make or break an area through the market forces of supply and demand.



Every action or phenomenon is a reaction as every action causes a reaction. You talk about racism and bias, which have existed against blacks for well over 300 years.....however....you don't talk of any reactions this had upon blacks. To say that the biggest problem of blacks is the break down of the black family misses the mark, because it does not address the actions that created the breakdown. Maybe the black family broke down from the impact of a racist society. Keep in mind also that white out of wedlock births went from about 3% in the 1950's to about 30% today, while the black rate went from 24% to 75% today. Yet, if the breakdown of the family is the root of most socioeconomic dysfunction, where is the evidence of the socioeconomic dysfunction in the white community which would be the resultant of a 1000% increase in white out of wedlock births since the 50's? Has the murder rate gone up for whites since then? Has the poverty rate gone up for whites since then? Had educational attainment of whites gone done? Nope, nope, nope and nope? Yet, the root of all dysfunction in the black community is said to be broken families....when the white socioeconomic condition, represented by statistics, appears impervious to the 1000% increase in the dysfunction of the white family unit. Again, excuse my incredulous. Whatever was happening in 1950, in regards to race, which resulted in blacks having 24% and whites 3%, is the root cause of the discrepancy between the black family and white family.....because since that time the skew has only been conserved....and the rate of decline has actually increased faster in the white population since then.....but with no evidence of it causing socioeconomic decline in the white community.
White folks are not going moving to Conant Gardens and Dexter-Davison - places where the ghetto black behavior is predominant. Midtown has some ghetto acting black folks, but there are alot of artists, students, professionals, hipsters, etc in that part of town. More and more white folks are moving down there, so the "ghetto" element's influence is less and less, which encourages more young white professionals to move down there.

You are right, maybe the black family broke down from the impact of a racist society. But those forces don't really exist today and if they do, they are weak. Here is what is STRONGLY holding back black folks - a dude having 4 children and he's only 20 years old and he thinks working for $10 an hour as a Hi-Lo operator at a warehouse is doing pretty good for himself. This is my former next neighbor - nice guy, but the mentality, the goals that these folks strive for are so low compared to other ethnic groups.

It seems that if the black nuclear family was ON PAR with whites and other minorities - families and communities that nurtured our youth, and instilled in them the importance of education and hard work, we wouldn't have all of this crime and communities that people keep fleeing from.

It just seems like in ghetto-hoods where I have lived and currently live, EBT and bridge card and WIC and government assistance is a way of life. If you can get any kind of government assistance, then you are doing well for yourself. It's a mentality that I just don't get. Having pride in NOT NEEDING government assistance is rare. This is instilled in people in the (broken) household and the overall culture. Low expectations. I don't know how the CURRENT white folks are to blame for that.
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Old 12-20-2015, 09:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10 View Post
White folks are not going moving to Conant Gardens and Dexter-Davison - places where the ghetto black behavior is predominant. Midtown has some ghetto acting black folks, but there are alot of artists, students, professionals, hipsters, etc in that part of town. More and more white folks are moving down there, so the "ghetto" element's influence is less and less, which encourages more young white professionals to move down there.
The poster said that white people want to move as far away as possible from such blacks and Midtown hardly meets the criteria of moving as far away as possible. Also, keep in mind that black fought to integrate America, including Detroit....and when laws made that possible, whites chose to vacate those integrating communities. Thus, it was the CHOICE of whites not to stay and mitigate the influence of "ghetto blacks" by outnumbering them by choosing not to move when a few moved in. Keep in mind also that whites learned white culture via integration and immersion with whites. Culture is learned and not an innate trait. Whites, however, would not allow blacks to integrate so that blacks could learn from this so-called superior "white culture". It was the choice of whites moving away which created the racial segregation and isolation that exists now and breed the separate and unequal cultures.


Quote:
You are right, maybe the black family broke down from the impact of a racist society. But those forces don't really exist today and if they do, they are weak. Here is what is STRONGLY holding back black folks - a dude having 4 children and he's only 20 years old and he thinks working for $10 an hour as a Hi-Lo operator at a warehouse is doing pretty good for himself. This is my former next neighbor - nice guy, but the mentality, the goals that these folks strive for are so low compared to other ethnic groups.
Yeah....the force of racism is not the same as 1950.....and neither is our economy the same as 1950 when people with little education could get a good paying job working in a factory and rise out of poverty. When America had the most to offer economically, it was still a deeply racist society. Back then America was the largest net exporting nation, running a large trade surplus and was the worlds largest creditor nation....while also being deep in the grips of Jim Crow racism and segregation that kept blacks from enjoying those opportunities equally with whites and deny the ability to create wealth to pass down. Today America is 18 trillion in debt and runs the worlds largest net trade deficit and the middle class is shrinking, the poor are getting poorer and the rich are getting richer. So now blacks are expected to climb up the mountain during an economic mudslide.

That said....we still have this :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApV0hszT-yo

Quote:
It seems that if the black nuclear family was ON PAR with whites and other minorities - families and communities that nurtured our youth, and instilled in them the importance of education and hard work, we wouldn't have all of this crime and communities that people keep fleeing from.
Well....if you take the millions of whites who are from single parent households, they still do much better than the black community, the crime rate is much lower and the degree of economic impact is not the same as. Marriage does not create income. The problem does not root in the unit of marriage, but rather, the components of marriage, which are individuals. If individuals are poor and or unemployed, getting married will not create an income. People act as if the act of marriage, in and of itself, produces income, values, morals etc.

Quote:
It just seems like in ghetto-hoods where I have lived and currently live, EBT and bridge card and WIC and government assistance is a way of life. If you can get any kind of government assistance, then you are doing well for yourself. It's a mentality that I just don't get. Having pride in NOT NEEDING government assistance is rare. This is instilled in people in the (broken) household and the overall culture. Low expectations. I don't know how the CURRENT white folks are to blame for that.
Of course it is a way of life when that is all you see when you grow up. Everything evolved into what it is....or maybe you do not realize that. It did not start out that way......but evolved into that over the decades of racism, discrimination and white flight. Blacks did not come from Africa with that mentality and blacks immigrating here from Africa do not have that mentality.....thus....its obvious that the mentality was MADE IN AMERICA.
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Old 12-20-2015, 10:33 PM
 
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The top-three issues of importance to African Americans are: unemployment and poverty (particularly poverty among children), strengthening education for grades pre-k through 12, and strengthening families. If more black men got married, worked, and supported their children economically and ensured their educational attainment, that would help a bit....no? Slavery, racism etc. is indeed part of the American legacy. However a more direct correlation to the plight of blacks is not slavery which existed in the south 155 years ago, but the phenomenon of something called "Baby Moma." Plenty of people around the world have faced more severe adversity.

Look at what is going on in Northern Iraq to Christians and Yezidis who have faced severe persecution and genocides for centuries. My question to you is why are these people who live in dirt poor villages with little education not in the same plight as blacks in the USA? How many Christian or Yezidi women go have 4 kids from 4 different men? How many Iraqi Christian women speak in ghetto speech compared to Muslim compatriots? How many musicians from their community record songs using the most vile language? Please answer why this does not exist? Or look at the Jewish community which was completely decimated in Europe.

My response is that a culture has come into existence in the USA which perpetuates "ghettonees" as opposed to institutionalized racism. Look at the Caste system in India. If you want to talk about treatment of people based on their background, that is a great place. Dirt poor and poverty stricken. Yet, there is an intact family unit among the downtrodden. You can say what you want, but perhaps all your vigor should focus on changing cultural attitudes within the black community to improve their plight.

I am not sugarcoating the fact that racism exists, or the horrible decision of whites to leave Detroit in mass in order to not live with blacks - a lot having to deal with property values also. But you are wasting your time using slavery and racism as the springboard for the current plight of blacks without honestly looking at other factors within the black community which have a more direct and severe impact on their plight.
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Old 12-21-2015, 08:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Republic of Michigan View Post
The top-three issues of importance to African Americans are: unemployment and poverty (particularly poverty among children), strengthening education for grades pre-k through 12, and strengthening families. If more black men got married, worked, and supported their children economically and ensured their educational attainment, that would help a bit....no? Slavery, racism etc. is indeed part of the American legacy. However a more direct correlation to the plight of blacks is not slavery which existed in the south 155 years ago, but the phenomenon of something called "Baby Moma." Plenty of people around the world have faced more severe adversity.

Look at what is going on in Northern Iraq to Christians and Yezidis who have faced severe persecution and genocides for centuries. My question to you is why are these people who live in dirt poor villages with little education not in the same plight as blacks in the USA? How many Christian or Yezidi women go have 4 kids from 4 different men? How many Iraqi Christian women speak in ghetto speech compared to Muslim compatriots? How many musicians from their community record songs using the most vile language? Please answer why this does not exist? Or look at the Jewish community which was completely decimated in Europe.

My response is that a culture has come into existence in the USA which perpetuates "ghettonees" as opposed to institutionalized racism. Look at the Caste system in India. If you want to talk about treatment of people based on their background, that is a great place. Dirt poor and poverty stricken. Yet, there is an intact family unit among the downtrodden. You can say what you want, but perhaps all your vigor should focus on changing cultural attitudes within the black community to improve their plight.

I am not sugarcoating the fact that racism exists, or the horrible decision of whites to leave Detroit in mass in order to not live with blacks - a lot having to deal with property values also. But you are wasting your time using slavery and racism as the springboard for the current plight of blacks without honestly looking at other factors within the black community which have a more direct and severe impact on their plight.
Well….for a stroke victim the top concerns are learning to speak, learning to walk and generally regaining the ability to function normatively, as established by the norms of human functionality. No? A person does not have to be having a stroke…..to be suffering from the effects of a stroke. No? The slurred speech and dysfunctional motor skills are THE LEGACY of the stroke. Hence, even if a person is not actively having a stroke that does not mean that the person is not suffering from a stroke. Furthermore, rehabilitation is needed in getting the person back to functioning, but if the ROOT CAUSE of the stroke is not addressed and resolved, all the rehabilitation in the world is not going to get the person back to normalcy.

Racism has been a 300 plus year active stroke upon African Americans. The high poverty, unemployment, cultural dysfunction, and economic displacement, relative to the norms of society (American society), are akin to the slurred speaking and dysfunctional motor skills of a stroke victim. Yet, society wants to disconnect black dysfunction from the stroke of racism and instead look at it as something genetic, as if to say that it is natural for blacks to be dysfunctional relative to other races. In other words, the stroke is not the cause of the slurred speech and dysfunctional motor skills, metaphorically speaking (which only leaves the nature of blacks as the root cause). Blacks in America are suffering from the complications of centuries of racism, as all actions have reaction and racism, like a stroke, produces a negative reaction upon that is debilitating. Keep in mind that racism did not end 155 years ago with slavery. It continued for another 100 years, legally, in the form of Jim Crow and the PRISON SYSTEM as slavery substitute. Only in the last 50 years has the oppression of blacks not been legalized.

Africans did not come to America, as the enslaved, from a culture of laziness and women having babies by 4 different daddies! That started with the white slave master, his sons and overseers impregnating African women, since they were PROPERTY to be had in whatever way that was desired. Today, you also do not find African immigrants coming to America where the people are lazy and the women have children by 4 different daddies out of wedlock. No, the “African” part of African American did not create the culture that we see in the African American community today. Rather, that comes from AMERIKKA. Culture is LEARNED and is not innate. African slaves were stripped of their culture, their names, their language, their religion and their customs for the most part. Hence, we learned culture from what white society exposed to us……which was abuse. We learned to value and see ourselves….as you saw us. We devalued ourselves as you devalued us. We marginalized ourselves because you marginalized us. We kill ourselves because you killed us. We call ourselves the N word because you called us that! We learned to be dysfunctional because you treated us dysfunctional. We are MADE IN AMERICA and hence that is the origin of the dysfunction....and America does not want to take ownership of that dysfunction.

It’s funny how people all have the answers to the causes and solutions of black people’s problems, while at the same time cannot solve the fact that the middle class in America is shrinking, the poor are getting poor, our 18 trillion dollar debt, our 30 plus year running trade deficit and a host of other growing problems of this nation. When America offered REAL economic opportunity, back in the 50’s, it had legalized racism keeping blacks from enjoying the full fruits of the zenith. Now that real economic opportunity has declined……blacks are expected to be able to hit the ground running and reverse the effects of 300 years of racism. How can blacks do that when America cannot even solve the plight of the shrinking Middle Class? What will happen to your standard of living if we tried to pay off that 18trillion dollar national debt? If things were just up to the personal responsibility of individuals, there would never be economic recession or depressions, as the only thing to explain contractions of the economy would be a rise in laziness and people choosing to be unemployed. That is not how it works. Banks stops lending, companies stop hiring or start firing and people lose their jobs. That is how Michigan lost over 800,000 jobs the last recession. How come personal responsibility did not prevent that? How come being married did not prevent that? How come having an education did not prevent that? How come working hard did not prevent that? Hard working, married, educated people lost jobs and livelihood in the last recession....most of then white. Why did not those attributes prevent Michigan's economy from collapsing last decade? Did Michigan get hit so hard, harder than most states, because the white people were lazier, more irresponsible, had lower rates of marriage and more baby daddies, had lower rates of education....or was it something external? Why then must you always see the black malaise as INTERNAL and not the result of external factors?

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 12-21-2015 at 08:54 AM..
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Old 12-21-2015, 05:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
It’s funny how people all have the answers to the causes and solutions of black people’s problems...
What's even funnier is that you seem to have an answer and an excuse for everything that's wrong with black culture.
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Old 12-22-2015, 11:45 PM
 
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The native whites of the Midwest led the fight against slavery through the abolitionist movement. Then fought (and died by the hundreds of thousands) against the slave-owning south. Then decades later millions of poor Europeans, Italians, Slavs etc...came to the Midwest to make better lives for themselves and their families...not knowing that millions of black southern migrants to the region would hold them personally accountable for things they never had ANYTHING to do with.

People are sick and tired of this, and rightly so. Broken record. Nobody cares anymore, and neither should they. Seems to me that a large chunk of black America has made a deal with the devil (that devil being government jobs, handouts, set-asides, affirmative action etc.). You reap what you sow. The well of white gult/sympathy is running very very dry. Why not try and make Asians feel guilty for their success? Surely it was all built upon the backs of black people.

Last edited by midwest1; 12-23-2015 at 12:09 AM..
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Old 12-23-2015, 02:50 AM
 
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I recommend this article Indentured....might help clear/focus your thinking a bit

Triggering Decline by Arthur Milikh, City Journal December 21, 2015
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