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Some good things are happening in Detroit but it is still, overall, terrible, and even the most "booming" areas, like Midtown are like bombed-out post apocalyptic zombie wastelands compared to even "normal" neighborhoods in places like NYC and London.
It's just that in Michigan people have very low standards for "urban". They think Chicago, which is really struggling, and pretty weak for global urban standards, is a top-tier city, and they think silly stuff like trolley lines and sports arenas and hipster bars are what makes cities. Basically the region's leaders need to get out of the Midwest, and see how cities function.
This is why it's hard for me to get excited about a random bar opening, or a hockey arena relocating. In the grand scheme of things, it's essentially meaningless. At current rate of "improvement" Detroit will need like 500 years to become a semi-normal city. I'll be worm-food long before the city is remotely livable.
So what "makes" cities? Please elaborate
I thought what "makes" cities (in a yuppie sense) are coffee shops, art galleries, unique boutique stores, restaurants, bars, museums, parks/greenspace, public transit, ethnic enclaves, professional sports, performing arts, etc.
The core of Detroit has 2 nationally renowned museums - DIA and African-American History, one of the nation's great urban parks (potentially anyway), a beautiful riverfront promenade, the largest public market in the country, historic architecture/housing galore, great pocket parks like Campus Martius and Grand Circus, a bonafide ethnic neighborhood in Mexicantown, a good-sized theater district downtown, a nearby ethnic treasure trove called Hamtramck - if these are what makes cities THEN DETROIT IS LACKING, BUT HAS VERY GOOD BONES AND IS GETTING BETTER!
Rapid transit is non-existent, but we will be voting on a rapid bus system in November.
Well first off, I love REALLY big cities. I'm talking NYC, London, etc. I'm actually not a fan of Chicago at all because it's in the Midwest and I hate Midwestern culture lol. Even Chicago has more going for it than Detroit with all of the issues the city has.
I'm not saying that there is no reason for SOMEONE to live there and there aren't any good things about Detroit or good things coming in the future. For someone who was born in Auburn Hills, moving to Midtown might be an exciting thing for them. Detroit just pales in comparison to other cities of the same size in terms of amenities, crime rate, and culture. Anyone who has lived in other metro areas, like me, knows this is true. I find it hilarious when people act like Detroit isn't what it is. One thing I will say is Detroiters have a LOT of pride.
1. What is Midwestern culture? Which culture do you prefer and how is it different from Midwestern culture?
3. And Detroiters do not have a "LOT of pride" in their city, or they wouldn't have abandoned it like no other city has been abandoned in world history (population has dropped 1.2 million in 60 years).
4. And you are not making sense. First you said that you've met hundreds of people who have moved to Detroit and regretted it - but then you say Detroiters act like the city is so vibrant and the greatest thing since sliced bread. How can they have great pride in a city....that they regret moving to???????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
I thought what "makes" cities (in a yuppie sense) are coffee shops, art galleries, unique boutique stores, restaurants, bars, museums, parks/greenspace, public transit, ethnic enclaves, professional sports, performing arts, etc.
The core of Detroit has 2 nationally renowned museums - DIA and African-American History, one of the nation's great urban parks (potentially anyway), a beautiful riverfront promenade, the largest public market in the country, historic architecture/housing galore, great pocket parks like Campus Martius and Grand Circus, a bonafide ethnic neighborhood in Mexicantown, a good-sized theater district downtown, a nearby ethnic treasure trove called Hamtramck - if these are what makes cities THEN DETROIT IS LACKING, BUT HAS VERY GOOD BONES AND IS GETTING BETTER!
Rapid transit is non-existent, but we will be voting on a rapid bus system in November.
You are selling this really well but it's not as glamorous as it sounds. What NOLA was trying to get at, but didn't say explicitly, was that a city should be walkable, busy with lots of foot traffic, have retail (see the link I posted Detroit is last among major cities), have well-paying jobs filled by educated professionals, etc. etc.
The DIA is one of those things like the Space Needle, you see it once and never go again if you live in that city. In my personal experience, there is almost no reason to head downtown if there's no a game going on.
Yeah, basically all this.
It's just that in Michigan people have very low standards for "urban". They think Chicago, which is really struggling, and pretty weak for global urban standards, is a top-tier city, and they think silly stuff like trolley lines and sports arenas and hipster bars are what makes cities. Basically the region's leaders need to get out of the Midwest, and see how cities function.
I mean you can't make something out of nothing. I don't think it's that they don't know what a "real city" is but there are no resources or funds to materialize anything. Detroit is what it is and Michigan is what it is. Detroit has been suffering for not a few years but decades and people are oversensitive about it because deep down they know the truth. If people didn't like it, they would leave and people have in mass numbers so that says something on its own. I'm just sick of the head in the sand, oversensitive mentality surrounding Detroit in general. Addressing legitimate issues is NOT "hating." People bash cities like crazy on other forums and it does not elicit the type of illogical responses that I read on this one. I don't think Detroit is entirely bad at all but you can't win on this forum discussing it with the crazy amounts of denial. Good luck trying to get any rational analysis of Detroit through on this forum! lol
You are selling this really well but it's not as glamorous as it sounds. What NOLA was trying to get at, but didn't say explicitly, was that a city should be walkable, busy with lots of foot traffic, have retail (see the link I posted Detroit is last among major cities), have well-paying jobs filled by educated professionals, etc. etc.
The DIA is one of those things like the Space Needle, you see it once and never go again if you live in that city. In my personal experience, there is almost no reason to head downtown if there's no a game going on.
Exactly. The DIA is wonderful but doesn't make a city. I would much rather have a functional city, with walkability, transit, street-level retail, non-scary neighborhoods, intact housing, than some beautiful art museum you might visit once every few years.
I mean, Toledo has a great art museum, probably better than the art museum in Toronto. Does that mean Toledo>Toronto? Of course not. It just means some rich dudes a century ago collected some art. Toledo is basically empty.
If you can't be content where you are, wherever you are, homeless people/litter or not, you'll never have a satisfying life. You'll always be after the elusive next thing. Learn to be content in whatever situation you find yourself.
There is definitely something to be said about this. You can't always control your situation but you can control your attitude towards it .
Why, exactly? What makes it "unsophisticated" to compare cities?
I'm not talking about size or importance- I'm talking about functional neighborhoods and urbanity. Relative city size is pretty much irrelevent.
If you have trouble with this concept, then compare Detroit to similarly sized cities. Say Munich, Milan, Barcelona. The exact same points apply.
I don't know what this means. No one has compared Detroit to NYC, and you are completely missing the point, which is not that Detroit should be as big or vibrant as NYC, but that Detroit is so bombed out and empty it will never be a "normal" city like NYC (aka functional).
Has nothing to do with size or importance. You can substitute Toronto, Vancouver, Brussels, Vienna, or whatever city of your choosing, same points stand regardless of city size. Heck, you can use Ann Arbor as comparison, which at least functions. It has real pedestrian traffic and vibrancy.
Then they're delusional. Detroit was much more populated and vibrant 20-30 years ago. It still had department stores, functional shopping districts, far more transit use, and had less abandonment.
Detroit has never been as empty as right now. It has basically never been worse.
There is a very good article on WBEZ on how Chicago has changed over decades you might find interesting. It describes the changes in neighborhoods and the city and how they are rarely one directional -- eg, average incomes across the north side can sky rocket while the middle class hollows out by and large. It's always an evolving, dynamic story.
In Detroit's case, 20 years ago the neighborhoods were not materially better. There was on average a very marginally higher degree of stable lower middle class neighborhoods, primarily on the city borders, but that is about it. These numbers were so small as to be negligible and the trajectory was straight down. That has not changed much.
Yes, there was more population. There was also even higher crime rates, particularly surrounding the crack epidemic of the 80s-early 90s, which many native Detroiters still identify as the death knell.
By "world class city" or even general suburban standards there was no material difference between the neighborhoods. The generalization would be that they were even more violent then, emptier now. So it makes little sense to conflate those two phenomena.
Regarding downtown, 30 years ago there may have been an equivalent or slightly greater number of retail and dining establishments, but the trajectory was extreme decline. 20 years ago, it was essentially a nothing flatline -- there were a few cultural institutions, few restaurants, and very little else. There was little reason to believe things would improve.
Today you have a comparatively very vibrant downtown area on a statistically undeniable upward trajectory supported by major investment, a resurgent creative class, competent city leadership, shored up city finances, massive new investment in stadiums and transportation, and genuinely sophisticated urban dining and retail.
The resurgence is both quantitative and qualitative. As they say, you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.
If you want me to present the data, I will when I get time. Trust me it's there, in spades.
It's your right to be a curmudgeon if it gives you satisfaction, but I don't know a single person who doesn't think the downtown/midtown area isn't on a very serious rebound -- and I'm talking about lifelong Detroiters.
You reference Chicago a lot. If you're familiar with the city, you know how many neighborhoods have come back in amazing fashion over the last 30 years. It is very possible if not likely at this point Detroit will experience the same phenomenon.
Yes, in both cities, some neighborhoods will decline.
That's pretty much how the story has gone in American cities for a long time.
The core of Detroit has 2 nationally renowned museums - DIA and African-American History, one of the nation's great urban parks (potentially anyway), a beautiful riverfront promenade, the largest public market in the country, historic architecture/housing galore, great pocket parks like Campus Martius and Grand Circus, a bonafide ethnic neighborhood in Mexicantown, a good-sized theater district downtown, a nearby ethnic treasure trove called Hamtramck - if these are what makes cities THEN DETROIT IS LACKING, BUT HAS VERY GOOD BONES AND IS GETTING BETTER!
And this is the silly hyperbole I'm talking about.
What's so special about Hamtramck? It's a near-slum with no architectural merit, where homes go for almost nothing, and where dollar stores and cash for gold stores predominate. Jos. Campeau, the main drag, looks bombed-out. Yeah, there are some recent immigrants, from Bangladesh. As soon as they have a few nickels, they're off to Macomb County, with all the other ethnics. The Poles and Albanians all left already.
The DIA is a good art museum, yes. The African American museum isn't some big draw. There are no really nice parks in Detroit (they're barely even maintained). The waterfront is nothing special compared to other cities. Eastern Market has equivalents in pretty much every city (including some better versions like in Philly, LA and Cleveland), every American city has a Mexican area (and most have much larger Mexican communities) and every city has downtown theaters.
Is there one street in Detroit where you can walk down for blocks and there are shops/restaurants, and it's intact/not bombed out and you don't have to fear for your life? Not really.
1. What is Midwestern culture? Which culture do you prefer and how is it different from Midwestern culture?
I don't see how that matters, it's personal preference. The Midwest, like every other part of the country has a particular feel...family oriented, slower pace, and more traditional....and I don't like that. I'm sure plenty of other people don't mind it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10
3. And Detroiters do not have a "LOT of pride" in their city, or they wouldn't have abandoned it like no other city has been abandoned in world history (population has dropped 1.2 million in 60 years).
The remaining people clearly do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10
4. And you are not making sense. First you said that you've met hundreds of people who have moved to Detroit and regretted it - but then you say Detroiters act like the city is so vibrant and the greatest thing since sliced bread. How can they have great pride in a city....that they regret moving
to???????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
Why does it have to be either/or? Where is the happy medium??? My major complaint is there is no happy medium it's just extremes, which is true of any place but seems worse in Detroit.
Is there one street in Detroit where you can walk down for blocks and there are shops/restaurants, and it's intact/not bombed out and you don't have to fear for your life? Not really.
I think there is danger in trying to compare Detroit to something that it's not and may never be. I struggle with that. LOL. Detroit is not a walkable city at all and there is pretty much no chance of that happening with this region's dependence on the automobile. Yes, culturally SW Detroit cannot compare to a Mexican neighborhood in CA, and there are cities who crush Detroit when it comes to what they offer as far as entertainment and outdoor activities. But people live in the D and make it work, so it is what it is. I've given up on Detroit and I feel at peace with that LOL.
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