I am so tired of this sterotype on the city (Detroit: neighborhoods, schools)

[OhEdo]

I am not a moderator, but being a relative newcomer (1+ years) to the city who actually enjoys it here I felt compelled to 'referee.' It seems to me that the problem with a lot of the posts I've seen on this thread and the other one about "the hype isn't true" is the tone, not the content, of the messages being posted. Most of the negative comments do have an element of truth to them; e.g., a lot of Detroit is in pretty bad shape. Likewise, most of the positive comments do as well; e.g., there are some really up and coming areas within Detroit. Some of you have even agreed on these points!
I've seen other "outsiders" make the same observation I am about to make: everybody seems so adversarial! Throughout the country you have the city types and the suburban types with the same sort of arguments, but in metro Detroit it just seems so much more pronounced. Heck, even I have to admit that I have at times been biased on the Detroit side, but I like to think that I haven't made any personal attacks (I could be wrong). Maybe if we toned things down a little more and focused on what we say rather than how we say it there could be a little more intelligent debate.
Enough pontificating - tear me to pieces!

[detshen]

RIP!! No, I'm kidding. I don't know if you have read some of the other threads as well. It took awhile for me to start getting cranky with the negative posts and my current strategy is to ignore those posts. I don't understand why this has to be such a big deal. Detroit has a lot of problems, i don't think anyone denied that, but some people tried to post some good things and that just wasn't acceptable to some posters. I like what you said there are elements of truth to both sides, I am biased but I don't see the positive posters denying the city has crime and blight. We just happen to like other things about the city.

[Sunvixen]

Originally Posted by OhEdo

I am not a moderator, but being a relative newcomer (1+ years) to the city who actually enjoys it here I felt compelled to 'referee.' It seems to me that the problem with a lot of the posts I've seen on this thread and the other one about "the hype isn't true" is the tone, not the content, of the messages being posted. Most of the negative comments do have an element of truth to them; e.g., a lot of Detroit is in pretty bad shape. Likewise, most of the positive comments do as well; e.g., there are some really up and coming areas within Detroit. Some of you have even agreed on these points!
I've seen other "outsiders" make the same observation I am about to make: everybody seems so adversarial! Throughout the country you have the city types and the suburban types with the same sort of arguments, but in metro Detroit it just seems so much more pronounced. Heck, even I have to admit that I have at times been biased on the Detroit side, but I like to think that I haven't made any personal attacks (I could be wrong). Maybe if we toned things down a little more and focused on what we say rather than how we say it there could be a little more intelligent debate.
Enough pontificating - tear me to pieces!

For what? That was a great post!

[and the]

I think one reason for the adversity may be that many, if not most suburbanites are less removed from the city than in other areas. You only have to go back one or two generations to a time where just about everybody around here had a relative in Detroit or lived in the city themselves. I believe Detroit was the most densly populated city in the country as far as single family homes. They can see the house they grew up in falling apart, they can see the places they worked falling apart, they can see their churches closed and crumbling all the while listening to those who now control the city blaming the suburbs for the decay while at the same time sticking their hands out for money to rebuild.

[Sunvixen]

Originally Posted by and the

I think one reason for the adversity may be that many, if not most suburbanites are less removed from the city than in other areas. You only have to go back one or two generations to a time where just about everybody around here had a relative in Detroit or lived in the city themselves. I believe Detroit was the most densly populated city in the country as far as single family homes. They can see the house they grew up in falling apart, they can see the places they worked falling apart, they can see their churches closed and crumbling all the while listening to those who now control the city blaming the suburbs for the decay while at the same time sticking their hands out for money to rebuild.

It is so funny that your brought this up, we were just having this discussion the other day. My Grandma's 81 yr old childhood best friend is coming in from WA State to visit for Easter. She has not been back to MI in 50 years. They grew up together by Detroit City Airport and she asked if we could go to Holy Name (of Jesus) Catholic Church for Easter. Well, we can't because they sold it. So, she asked about St Rita's. I said I think they just closed it not too long ago. She started listing off once vibrant Churches in Detroit, and one by one I had to tell her that they are not open anymore. I spared her the news reports of the churches being looted and stripped bare. Finally she asked about St Mary's down in Greektown or Sweetest Heart of Mary (an incredibly beautiful Church...a Cathedral really) So we will take her there.

It's one thing to see a house destroyed, but it's harder I believe, especially for older folks, to see their old Churches ransacked.

If anybody watched the Sopranos, there was an scene that illustrated my point perfectly: (I cannot quote it word for word, and it's been a few years since I saw it but here is the gist

Tony Soprano and his apathetic son went for a drive to Newark, where the old family Italian Catholic Church was. Tony explained to his son that his great grandfather was a stone mason and that he had come to American in 1910 with nothing. "He worked hard, he didn't ask anybody for anything! People didn't want Italians in there churches back then, so what did the Italians do? Did they cry about it? No! They built bigger churches,...BETTER churches!! And they didn't ask for any body's help to do it! Look at this place! They can't even do this kind of work anymore!"

And he goes on to note the blight that is devouring the surrounding area.


So many Europeans came to Detroit from (and with) nothing and worked hard and built communities here. Those people worked hard like none of us, not YOU, not ME, nobody works like that today, and they did it with a style that in many cases was, like the hand of God carving out beauty from dirt.

If you really think about it, they did so MUCH with so little. But it wasn't only a few, it was whole communities of people. The very LEAST that was expected of you was that you have a job and support your own family and have a house and take care of it. That was the LEAST you should do.

You could walk down a street in an Italian or a Polish or German neighborhood and not see one single weed in a lawn, not one single piece of trash on the pavement. For decades and decades it was like that. Those were POOR, UNEDUCATED people, most of whom came here without knowing a word of English! My Great-grandpa was the only surviving child of Eleven. Eleven. He came here at 16 and worked to save enough money to bring both his parents and two aunts over. He worked two full time jobs AND learned English while staying in a garage with a wood burning stove and surviving on bread sandwiches. We complain when the cable goes out or the store is out of honey-buns.

They had PRIDE because they worked hard and produced results. The accomplishments came FIRST, the PRIDE followed the accomplishments. The way it should be.


Did you all read that? Did you FEEL what I was telling you? It's not always about reading with your eyes, it is about listening with your heart too. Can you feel the emotion? I am feeling it for my family now. For good people that I loved who worked SO hard to make things better, without asking for any help, without hurting any body. Good people that got run out of the city they loved and helped build. Do you understand now what ex-Detroiters, like "and the" wrote? People like my Grandparents do not just SEE the decay...they FEEL it.

[downthathighway]

On the stereotype topic:
Stereotype?
..Jobs? Plentiful jobs,Come on in to the employment office, if you can't write, just mark an 'X' for a signature. Pay is 5 X or more than the minimum wage, even for sweeping the floor.
..Housing? Well, its a little crowded in the city,there are no vacant lots. After all, population is over 2 million here.Tree lined streets everywhere. You might have to move out to the country in Oakland County or Livonia until you can afford a place in the city.
note to Cliff and Clare/Ward and June,etc- please tell your kids the curfew starts when the streetlights come on and they shouldn't ride his bike after curfew.
..Education? There's so much tax $ coming in from all these factories we can afford to provide the best public schools in the country.
..Transportation? Just walk down to the corner at any main street, there's busses or streetcars running 24/7 on schedule, no need for an automobile or a driveway/garage in your neighborhood.

"Don't Bogart That Joint, My Friend"

...OK, that was a mid 50's stereotype of Detroit.
Now we still hear all is well in Detroit.
And we hear of gritty urban desolation and fears of crime similar to the old west.
But there is no in-between.
As of the last few days anyways. (hint)

[OhEdo]

Originally Posted by and the

I think one reason for the adversity may be that many, if not most suburbanites are less removed from the city than in other areas. You only have to go back one or two generations to a time where just about everybody around here had a relative in Detroit or lived in the city themselves. I believe Detroit was the most densly populated city in the country as far as single family homes. They can see the house they grew up in falling apart, they can see the places they worked falling apart, they can see their churches closed and crumbling all the while listening to those who now control the city blaming the suburbs for the decay while at the same time sticking their hands out for money to rebuild.

You are probably right on this one, and I have heard the same thing about Detroit once being the mostly densely populated single home city in the US. In fact, I even heard it said that it was probably too crowded, so some of the exodus early on was probably welcome.
By contrast, nobody is really "from" the newer cities west of the Mississippi and south of the Mason Dixon line (well in the south there are exceptions for places like Charleston and Savannah). I would even argue that cities such as Phoenix and Dallas are just overgrown subdivisions and industrial parks, so there is very little "us vs. them," right?
As for the older cities up here in the north and east that seem to be doing a bit better than Detroit, I guess the disappearance of one's home is not so sad if it's been replaced by a gleaming office building rather than a dilapidated shell.
As you pointed out, it really isn't possible (at least for the next few generations) to emulate the new cities and I'm not sure that's what most people want anyway. I have a feeling that even the most negative people (not the people posting on this thread; I understand you're mixed feelings) would like to see Detroit as a city rise again. The more negative people are right in that you can't have your cake and eat it too by asking for handouts with none of the administrative oversight that goes with it. The more positive people are right that grass roots movements should not be underestimated and have a very positive influence on the city.
A lot of people have noted as well that the long history of corrupt leadership has also done a lot of harm. Most seem to agree that Dennis Archer at least tried to do a good job, but he quit in frustration! I've got to admit, I don't want the mayor's job and I doubt that many others do - who wants to take over this mess? (With all due credit to the local private efforts that do perform a lot of good.) In the absence of good leadership, a friend of mine has suggested that going into receivership, as Hamtramck once did (they got themselves out recently) and Highland Park still is, would be the best thing to happen to Detroit. I don't know if I agree 100%, as it would be a very painful process, but I have to admit that it would rid the city of a lot of the cronyism and corruption when every expenditure has to be approved by state and federal administrators. Any thoughts?

[and the]

but I have to admit that it would rid the city of a lot of the cronyism and corruption when every expenditure has to be approved by state and federal administrators. Any thoughts?

I think that pretty much sums it up, although I'm a little too cynical to put as much faith in grass roots efforts as you may.

[saraht]

Just bumping up and down the roads with all the pot holes,etc. THey charge a fortune in taxes and the state and local city governments just waste it.

[kimba01]

My oh my, there are some defensive people here. Understandably, for those that still live in Detroit hang onto a dream that it will one day become what it was. Doubtful. While the bigwigs build up downtown and do nothing for the surrounding areas just who do you think they are doing it for? The drug dealers? The gangs? The slumlords? No. They are doing it to lure the suburbanites down to a "safer" Detroit so that they will spend their money and tell everyone how wonderful it has become. Just don't cross that one street into darkness. Well maybe they should put the money into the crimeridden areas instead. Do like Hamtramck at the end of the wonderful Labor Day Festival-pull out the bulldozers and start dozing the trash up. Clean up the school system. People don't want to move here not only due to crime, but have you looked at the ratings the schools get? Even the druggies bring their kids to the suburbs to go to school!

Getting the suburbanites to care about Detroit isn't the answer, most of them did and many still do. The real answer is to get the Detroiters to care about Detroit. Even the mayors can't get that right. They need to look into other major cities and see how they accomplish better control. Get off their own self-serving pedestals and really reach out to the people-show them how to help. There are plenty of them. Look how many get involved on Angels night. They are out there, they just need a leader.

Sadly, the good people that stay and are being "jailed" in their home are not going to change Detroit, but what they will do is miss out on a quality of life. It is a sad truth.

Detroit is not the only city in this predicament, I realize this. For me, I feel sad for Detroit and sad that the good people who want it to be good again, are swimming upstream.