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Old 06-21-2017, 11:47 AM
 
Location: Detroit
3,671 posts, read 4,941,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rothwells mum View Post
Wait, did you just compare Ann Arbor to Orange County? As in Orange County, California? They are worlds apart -the OC is like the seventh circle of hell - Ann Arbor is a fun place to go on a day trip with your kids - the Hand's On museum is great and you will see people from all walks of life there.
I think what he was getting at is OC acts like it's a separate metro from LA. And he is right about that. One time I posted on the OC forum and had some posters try to attack me for grouping them with the LA metro until I posted facts proving that they ARE part of the LA area. Even then they continued to say, "well well, we don't hardly need to go to LA for anything because OC has it's own thing." Even when I got to OC they talked about LA as if it was 2 hours away or something. Fort Lauderdale kind of had this attitude towards Miami as well.
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
28,577 posts, read 67,826,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS313 View Post
I think what he was getting at is OC acts like it's a separate metro from LA. And he is right about that. One time I posted on the OC forum and had some posters try to attack me for grouping them with the LA metro until I posted facts proving that they ARE part of the LA area. Even then they continued to say, "well well, we don't hardly need to go to LA for anything because OC has it's own thing." Even when I got to OC they talked about LA as if it was 2 hours away or something. Fort Lauderdale kind of had this attitude towards Miami as well.

They may act like LA is two hours away, because it is two hours away. 2.5 to be specific. You can frequently make it in an hour an a half, but not often enough to risk relying on that time. If you need to be on time, you have to leave 2.5 hours to get there. It is possible to make it in 37 minutes, but that happened for me once in 18 years.Driving is very inconsistent. 1.5 hours may be average or maybe a slight majority - meaning 51% of the time you will make it in 1.5 hours. However most people cannot afford to be up to an hour late 49% f the time. You need 2.5 hours to be on time 95% of the time (even leaving 2.5 hours, you will be late 5% of the time). You can get from Santa Ana to Union station by train in an hour and fifteen minutes, then you have to transfer to the subway and whatever time it takes to ride the subway then walk to your final destination. You are still pretty close to two hours. At least that is more consistent than driving, except when someone uses the train for suicide( a couple to several times a year), or some kids push a shopping cart or something onto the tracks.

Ann Arbor and OC are simlar in that way. The feel they do not really need the nearby giant city, because they probably don't. Like OC/LA, people in Ann Arbor typically rarely or never go to Detroit. What does it offer they do not already have? Sports and theater. (In OC's case they have their own sports and theater). In both cases, only a smallish percentage of people commute to the big city rather than working locally. For OC the commute will ruin your life and there are plenty of jobs in OC. For Ann Arbor it is more a case of why bother when there are loads of good or better jobs right in Ann Arbor.

In the 18 years we lived in OC, my wife went to LA maybe five times. When we lived in/near Ann Arbor, we went to Detroit once. (I am not counting the time when I was attending WSU.).

Last edited by Coldjensens; 06-21-2017 at 02:26 PM..
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Detroit
3,671 posts, read 4,941,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
They may act like LA is two hours away, because it is two hours away. 2.5 to be specific. You can frequently make it in an hour an a half, but not often enough to risk relying on that time. If you need to be on time, you have to leave 2.5 hours to get there. It is possible to make it in 37 minutes, but that happened for me once in 18 years.Driving is very inconsistent. 1.5 hours may be average or maybe a slight majority - meaning 51% of the time you will make it in 1.5 hours. However most people cannot afford to be up to an hour late 49% f the time. You need 2.5 hours to be on time 95% of the time (even leaving 2.5 hours, you will be late 5% of the time). You can get from Santa Ana to Union station by train in an hour and fifteen minutes, then you have to transfer to the subway and whatever time it takes to ride the subway then walk to your final destination. You are still pretty close to two hours. At least that is more consistent than driving, except when someone uses the train for suicide( a couple to several times a year), or some kids push a shopping cart or something onto the tracks.

Ann Arbor and OC are simlar in that way. The feel they do not really need the nearby giant city, because they probably don't. Like OC/LA, people in Ann Arbor typically rarely or never go to Detroit. What does it offer they do not already have? Sports and theater. (In OC's case they have their own sports and theater). In both cases, only a smallish percentage of people commute to the big city rather than working locally. For OC the commute will ruin your life and there are plenty of jobs in OC. For Ann Arbor it is more a case of why bother when there are loads of good or better jobs right in Ann Arbor.

In the 18 years we lived in OC, my wife went to LA maybe five times. When we lived in/near Ann Arbor, we went to Detroit once. (I am not counting the time when I was attending WSU.).
To answer your question about what Detroit has that AA doesn't, like I said before in my other post, better/ more options for shopping, museums, casinos, concerts, pro sports, even certain festivals and more diverse selection of nightlife and restaurants, ect. Especially if you are African American there is obviously even more things that appeal to you in Detroit. Ann Arbor is basically like Toledo where it has it's own amenities but every once in a while they come up to Detroit for one of the reasons I mentioned.

Other than that I'm with you. I was just clearing up the confusion between the OC and A2 comparisons comparisons.

Last edited by MS313; 06-21-2017 at 02:56 PM..
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Old 06-22-2017, 06:21 AM
 
1,916 posts, read 2,421,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
I don't really understand how that makes a place sound insular and snobbish. Don't get me wrong people don't think they're too good to go to Metro Detroit, they just don't need to. What is the benefit of going to Ferndale or Royal Oak if you live in Ann Arbor?
Because Ann Arbor is just a city of 112,000 within a county of 335,000. Michigan is a state of 10 million with a metro of 4.3 million right next door. Are people in Ann Arbor really that detached and trapped in their 112,000 people bubble that they are not aware of some of the great, unique things that exist next door in our highly flawed Metro area. Don't you get tired going to the same things in the same county over and over again. Your downtown is not that big. In the Detroit Metro, you can go to midtown, Corktown, downtown, east riverfront, Ferndale, Plymouth, Wyandotte, Pontiac, Lake St. Clair (sail, motorboat, jet-ski, swim), Windsor, etc. In Ann Arbor, you have downtown, Ypsilanti, Dexter, and the Huron River.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
If you grew up in Ann Arbor prior to Detroit's resurgence in the past few years, what was the incentive to go there?
Higher end Shopping at Somerset and Twelve Oaks, access to the nearest-by Great Lakes System waterways (St. Clair River, Lake St. Clair, Detroit River, and Lake Erie), the Detroit Institute of Arts, Eastern Market (Ann Arbor has its own art museum and farmer's market, but they are not in the same class as Detroit's).

Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
The thinking in Michigan in the 1980s and 90s was that Ann Arbor was the closest thing the state had to a vibrant cosmopolitan city?
When I was growing up in the 80's and 90's in Metro Detroit, Ann Arbor was thought of as a ultra-liberal, kind-of-out-there, hippie enclave, home of the Hash Bash. Vibrant college town. Charming, lively downtown. I don't recall it being regarded as a mini-Chicago. In the '80s and '90s nobody cared about cosmopolitan urban life in Michigan, that's why so many young folks left in droves to Chicago, San Fran, New York, etc.

Last edited by usroute10; 06-22-2017 at 06:30 AM..
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Old 06-22-2017, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Chicago
944 posts, read 905,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10 View Post
Because Ann Arbor is just a city of 112,000 within a county of 335,000. Michigan is a state of 10 million with a metro of 4.3 million right next door. Are people in Ann Arbor really that detached and trapped in their 112,000 people bubble that they are not aware of some of the great, unique things that exist next door in our highly flawed Metro area. Don't you get tired going to the same things in the same county over and over again. Your downtown is not that big. In the Detroit Metro, you can go to midtown, Corktown, downtown, east riverfront, Ferndale, Plymouth, Wyandotte, Pontiac, Lake St. Clair (sail, motorboat, jet-ski, swim), Windsor, etc. In Ann Arbor, you have downtown, Ypsilanti, Dexter, and the Huron River.
People keep saying this, but I lived in Suburban Detroit for the better part of 20 years of my life and it was not some highly integrated paradise of doing new things every single day. There may be people out there who are doing a Plymouth bar crawl one day and hanging out at an indie club in Pontiac before spending the next day on Lake St. Clair, but I've literally never met anybody like that in Metro Detroit. My experience growing up in the western suburbs was that people went to work, came home from work and then stayed at home or went out within a several mile vicinity of home before going back. The reason people want to live in places like Pleasant Ridge or Clawson is because that expands that small radius to include downtown areas in Royal Oak and Ferndale and Berkley. You are creating a straw man version of suburban Detroit where people from Commerce Township make 70 mile round trip just because they're bored of the same bars and restaurants.

The truth is that most people aren't taking advantage of all of the amazing things to do in Metro Detroit, even when they live far closer to those amenities than people in Ann Arbor. Instead people are using trying to fit a prefabricated narrative in which Ann Arbor is a snooty place for snooty people who clam up at the very idea of being lumped in with pedestrian normies in the suburbs by bludgeoning them for not traveling 90 miles round trip routinely to hang out in Ferndale at bars that are really no more interesting than the ones in downtown Ann Arbor in the first place. Frankly, I have friends in Brooklyn who have lived there for three years now and they don't go to Manhattan, they don't go to places that aren't within walking distance of their apartment after they get home from work. C'est la vie.

As to your latter points about the DIA and Eastern Market, of course people from Ann Arbor go to those places but those are one day events that you only really need to go to once or twice a year. Trust me, the DIA wishes that 4.3 million people were going there more frequently than that... they only get around 600,000 visitors a year. Somerset, back in the day when anybody actually cared about or needed malls in order to be able to shop, might have similarly been a once or twice a year trip for somebody in Ann Arbor who would have to drive nearly 100 miles there and back. I would honestly like to know the most recent time you decided to drive for 2 hours just to shop?
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Old 06-22-2017, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,787 posts, read 2,037,469 times
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So if people from Commerce aren't making the 70 mile roundtrip for daily entertainment, and people from Ann Arbor aren't making the 70 mile roundtrip for daily entertainment and only do this maybe a handful of times per year to see things like the DIA and Eastern Market, and people from Pontiac aren't going to bars in Detroit every day because they have their own while people in Ann Arbor aren't going to bars in Detroit every day because they have their own..

But commute patterns between Ann Arbor and Canton are roughly the same as commute patterns between Southfield and West Bloomfield, or Troy and Shelby Township, and the commuter traffic between Wayne County and other Oakland/Macomb/Washtenaw/Livingston Counties scales proportionately with the population and number of jobs within the counties...

You see where I'm going with this, right?

Ann Arbor is a great city, it mixes the some of the good of Royal Oak with some of the good of Troy, plus has a world-class university. All of this does indeed make it highly desirable if one has the money, fits with the political expectations, and can get past the subjective snobbishness and college-bro attitudes which are obviously more prevalent here than most other places in the metro. It's not for me, but I get how someone would state it is the best place to live in Metro Detroit for a young single or DINK family - or even an upper-middle class family with kids, you can make these arguments and I can't refute them as they are subjective.

But the point of this whole discussion is that it is greatly influenced and positively impacted by its proximity and dependence upon Metro Detroit.
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Old 06-22-2017, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Ann Arbor MI
2,137 posts, read 1,471,019 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usroute10 View Post
Because Ann Arbor is just a city of 112,000 within a county of 335,000. Michigan is a state of 10 million with a metro of 4.3 million right next door. Are people in Ann Arbor really that detached and trapped in their 112,000 people bubble that they are not aware of some of the great, unique things that exist next door in our highly flawed Metro area. Don't you get tired going to the same things in the same county over and over again. Your downtown is not that big. In the Detroit Metro, you can go to midtown, Corktown, downtown, east riverfront, Ferndale, Plymouth, Wyandotte, Pontiac, Lake St. Clair (sail, motorboat, jet-ski, swim), Windsor, etc. In Ann Arbor, you have downtown, Ypsilanti, Dexter, and the Huron River.
Do you have some statistical evidence that people in Ann Arbor travel outside the immediate area considerably less than other suburbs? How far do people along the 696 corridor travel for entertainment? How many of them get in their cars and drive 30-40 miles for entertainment? The thing is if you live along the 696 corridor your drive in to downtown Detroit is half or even a third or quarter the distance that it is from Ann Arbor. If your round trip to a casino is 20 miles thats a bit easier than if its 70 plus miles.

Look at the Amtrak station activity in SE Michigan and you will see Ann Arbor almost doubles Dearborn (2nd busiest) in activity. If you total all the Amtrak stations east of Ann Arbor...Dearborn, Detroit, Royal Oak, Troy and Pontiac covering a fair chunk of the Metro area the Ann Arbor traffic on Amtrak far outweighs our statistical share. And we also get on Megabuses regularly. Those numbers I can't find.

maybe the answer to your question "Don't you get tired going to the same things in the same county over and over again?" is "ya and when we do we hop a train bus or car to Chicago."
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Old 06-23-2017, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Windsor Ontario/Colchester Ontario
1,598 posts, read 1,563,626 times
Reputation: 1896
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig11152 View Post
Do you have some statistical evidence that people in Ann Arbor travel outside the immediate area considerably less than other suburbs? How far do people along the 696 corridor travel for entertainment? How many of them get in their cars and drive 30-40 miles for entertainment? The thing is if you live along the 696 corridor your drive in to downtown Detroit is half or even a third or quarter the distance that it is from Ann Arbor. If your round trip to a casino is 20 miles thats a bit easier than if its 70 plus miles.

Look at the Amtrak station activity in SE Michigan and you will see Ann Arbor almost doubles Dearborn (2nd busiest) in activity. If you total all the Amtrak stations east of Ann Arbor...Dearborn, Detroit, Royal Oak, Troy and Pontiac covering a fair chunk of the Metro area the Ann Arbor traffic on Amtrak far outweighs our statistical share. And we also get on Megabuses regularly. Those numbers I can't find.

maybe the answer to your question "Don't you get tired going to the same things in the same county over and over again?" is "ya and when we do we hop a train bus or car to Chicago."
Really? So to do something different you would rather drive 4 hrs to Chicago than 45 minutes to Detroit?
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Old 06-23-2017, 06:54 AM
 
Location: Ann Arbor MI
2,137 posts, read 1,471,019 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North 42 View Post
Really? So to do something different you would rather drive 4 hrs to Chicago than 45 minutes to Detroit?
Not the point. I was merely refuting the notion that Ann Arbor people never leave the city for entertainment purposes.
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Old 06-23-2017, 09:22 AM
 
4,789 posts, read 8,782,476 times
Reputation: 1889
I wonder if that's why some institutions serving both the Detroit metro and Ann Arbor are in far southwest or west Oakland County. The weekend school for Japanese expats is in Novi, making it convenient to Ann Arbor and much of the Detroit metro area. I imagine the Chinese and Korean schools are around there too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brodie734 View Post
People keep saying this, but I lived in Suburban Detroit for the better part of 20 years of my life and it was not some highly integrated paradise of doing new things every single day. There may be people out there who are doing a Plymouth bar crawl one day and hanging out at an indie club in Pontiac before spending the next day on Lake St. Clair, but I've literally never met anybody like that in Metro Detroit. My experience growing up in the western suburbs was that people went to work, came home from work and then stayed at home or went out within a several mile vicinity of home before going back. The reason people want to live in places like Pleasant Ridge or Clawson is because that expands that small radius to include downtown areas in Royal Oak and Ferndale and Berkley. You are creating a straw man version of suburban Detroit where people from Commerce Township make 70 mile round trip just because they're bored of the same bars and restaurants.

The truth is that most people aren't taking advantage of all of the amazing things to do in Metro Detroit, even when they live far closer to those amenities than people in Ann Arbor. Instead people are using trying to fit a prefabricated narrative in which Ann Arbor is a snooty place for snooty people who clam up at the very idea of being lumped in with pedestrian normies in the suburbs by bludgeoning them for not traveling 90 miles round trip routinely to hang out in Ferndale at bars that are really no more interesting than the ones in downtown Ann Arbor in the first place. Frankly, I have friends in Brooklyn who have lived there for three years now and they don't go to Manhattan, they don't go to places that aren't within walking distance of their apartment after they get home from work. C'est la vie.

As to your latter points about the DIA and Eastern Market, of course people from Ann Arbor go to those places but those are one day events that you only really need to go to once or twice a year. Trust me, the DIA wishes that 4.3 million people were going there more frequently than that... they only get around 600,000 visitors a year. Somerset, back in the day when anybody actually cared about or needed malls in order to be able to shop, might have similarly been a once or twice a year trip for somebody in Ann Arbor who would have to drive nearly 100 miles there and back. I would honestly like to know the most recent time you decided to drive for 2 hours just to shop?
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