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View Poll Results: Help us make a choice!
Royal Oak 6 50.00%
Berkley 3 25.00%
Clawson 0 0%
Wixom 1 8.33%
West Bloomfield 0 0%
Birmingham 2 16.67%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-28-2017, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
1,265 posts, read 1,045,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pojack View Post
This phenomenon isn't exclusive to upper class families. It's called bad parenting. It occurs in all social classes.

No. Of course it isn't exclusive to upper class families. Just more surprising when you find it in highly educated people with prominent careers who appear very articulate and aware, and seem to know a lot better. Hopefully you and your family and all of the young parents here will never run into any of these situations at all. It's frightening to think about, I certainly realize that. As I said, my intention isn't to offend or put anyone on the defensive.
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Old 06-28-2017, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Back in the Mitten. Formerly NC
3,819 posts, read 5,387,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pojack View Post
I've been watching this for the last 4 years. Each year for the past 4 years, its capped at 5 students beginning in 11th grade. I don't know what the numbers they accepted 5+ years ago, but I suspect it's probably been capped at 5 kids. I don't believe they're conspiring to bring in kids of former alumni either.
Ok. You are the expert

Forget the fact that I used to teach and I've witnessed these practices first hand. Granted, I never taught in Northville, but I have taught in districts with limited enrollment and lotteries. Somehow, for the right person, they go from no spots and/or a lottery drawing to "oh, we can take you" depending on who is asking.
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Old 06-28-2017, 07:19 PM
 
884 posts, read 1,124,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
While I love Northville (grew up there - sort of) and I think it is a great place. Some of these assertions seem odd to me. Maybe you can explain what you mean?


"somewhat diverse" - roughly 94 % white, I guess "somewhat" is a relative term. When people talk about diversity - Northville never pops to mind for most people. It is pretty much an all white place.

Exactly! I would never call Northville diverse. Canton is a lot more diverse than Northville - for example.

Across the street Novi has a giant wooden playscape and many soccer fields. It is supposed to be for Novi residents only, but we often took our kids there when visiting Grandpa and no one ever checked us for ID. Might be restrictions on parking you car there (we walked or biked).

Yeah - I'm a non-Novi resident and use this park a lot. Nobody ever checks ID and I didn't even know it was supposed to be for Novi residents only. There are no restrictions on parking your car there. There's no signage that tells you it's a "Novi Community only" park.

Traffic is a problem for Northville and especially for the surrounding communities. (Beck Road in Northville Township is probably the worst place for traffic that I regularly encounter in Michigan, there may be worse places, but Beck has to be top ten). It is roughly an hour from Downtown Detroit - you can make it faster on occasion, but an hour is what most people will allow to get to work on time most of the time.

Yes, Beck Road is just evil. It's worse now because there's construction cones north at 8 mile because they are doing construction at Beck north of 8.

The only spot that I know that's remotely comparable to being horrible for traffic and accident prone in Michigan is the intersection of Auburn and Rochester in Rochester Hills.



Funny suggestion for a Condo. The whole Condo thing is what nearly ruined Northvlle (and Plymouth). It is the antithesis of what Northville stands for and what makes it charming. However yes, they are there, and there are some apartments too. They are really ugly and an eyesore to the community, but yes they are affordable while a Victorian or Tudor house in Northville is not affordable. Northville property taxes are pretty high for Wayne County, so be sure you factor that in when you decide what you can afford. They are about the same as we have in Grosse Ile. I think it works out for us to about 1.5% of the actual value per year. Northville is in Wayne County which for some unfathomable reason scares some people off. Stigma maybe?

The condos are really dinky for anything that's reasonably priced. We looked at a few and really weren't impressed. Also, we really wanted to move back to Oakland County - given the politics of Wayne county. We aren't Liberals and Oakland County is simply more fiscally responsible than Wayne County. Also, we were a lot happier with the our experience with my son's former school in Oakland County than his experience in Wayne County. (Yes, all schools are different - we were just zoned to one that sucked for what my son needed at the time.) So, we are happy we moved to Lyon Township where it's 70% Republican (this is really an anomaly).


We bid on a house being auctioned off there in 2005, and it appeared we were going to win it at $480,000, then someone walked in at the last minute and Bid $620,000. (Odd, they probably could have gotten it for $500,000 we were at our limit and other bidders had dropped out). That house is now shown as worth $1.2 million. So I guess property values in Northville have more than recovered from the recession.
Yeah - when we looked there in 2015, the prices were just ridiculous for what was being offered. You won't find a move-in ready house for under $350K. That's just the reality. Our house in Lyon was move in ready and at our price point. We started looking in Novi/South Lyon/Lyon Township after that realization.
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Old 06-29-2017, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
27,306 posts, read 64,801,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopygirlmi View Post
Yeah - when we looked there in 2015, the prices were just ridiculous for what was being offered. You won't find a move-in ready house for under $350K. That's just the reality. Our house in Lyon was move in ready and at our price point. We started looking in Novi/South Lyon/Lyon Township after that realization.
Where (ballpark do not post your address) did you end up? Just curious because you might be a neighbor to our family property (where my dad lives).
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Old 06-29-2017, 09:46 PM
 
169 posts, read 128,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
How does this relate? Let's compare Northville High, which according to another poster accepts 5 school of choice applicants, and according to state data gives free/discounted lunch to 5% of students. What this tells me is that you've got an immensely wealthy student population with lots of parental involvement and focus on academic success. These kids are going to do just fine regardless of the teachers they have. Contrast this with Berkley or Royal Oak High - both schools which accept a significant %age of students as school-of-choice (up to 20%, if I'm not mistaken) from all over the area - Ferndale, Clawson, Madison Heights, Hazel Park, Southfield, Oak Park.. while having free/discounted lunch offered to roughly 20% of the student population. These schools both perform very well and graduate a lot of successful college-bound students. Their test scores are competitive with Northville or Birmingham schools and the futures of their typical students are just as bright, but these are kids from the entire economic spectrum. Most of these kids come from middle class families, some from wealthy, some from poor, some likely have minimal parental involvement and just enough academic pressure for their parents to get them into good schools, whether through zip code or school of choice.

Which school is more impressive?
Which school is more impressive? The one who isn't forced to take in kids from everywhere in order to maintain financial stability. I've heard much more bad than good regarding school of choice from multiple sources. Isn't one of the Grosse Pointe high schools experiencing a lot of problems as a result of school of choice? I know many of the downriver schools are. It may not be reported in the media because it's not politically correct to come out and say that many kids coming in from Detroit or other "disadvantaged" communities are causing problems in many of the choice schools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo-Aggie View Post
Sorry, I'm on a tangent here, but I guess my point is that if you're getting just as good of schools (possibly better ones, when considering input/output) in a community that costs less, has walkable streets, and doesn't reek of "keeping up with the Jones'" is that really all worth sacrificing for more square footage, an attached garage, and a more modern layout? For some it might be, and I suppose it's completely subjective as to where your priorities are. I'm a minimalist, and for me the attached garage and additional square footage just isn't that big of a deal.
Royal Oak has its share of $500K+ homes and people trying to keep up with the Jones'. It's not a good example for the point you're trying to make.
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Old 06-29-2017, 09:52 PM
 
169 posts, read 128,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkeith View Post
No. Of course it isn't exclusive to upper class families. Just more surprising when you find it in highly educated people with prominent careers who appear very articulate and aware, and seem to know a lot better. Hopefully you and your family and all of the young parents here will never run into any of these situations at all. It's frightening to think about, I certainly realize that. As I said, my intention isn't to offend or put anyone on the defensive.
One thing I've learned in my lifetime is that "highly educated and articulate" doesn't necessarily equal common sense.
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Old 06-29-2017, 10:09 PM
 
169 posts, read 128,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaynarie View Post
Ok. You are the expert

Forget the fact that I used to teach and I've witnessed these practices first hand. Granted, I never taught in Northville, but I have taught in districts with limited enrollment and lotteries. Somehow, for the right person, they go from no spots and/or a lottery drawing to "oh, we can take you" depending on who is asking.
Your whole point when you entered this discussion was that school demographics aren't reflective of the demographics of the community because of school of choice. I pointed out to you that Northville has a limited school of choice program that accepts 5 students per year into the 11th grade. You then stated that you've experienced favoritism and people being accepted into limited choice schools based on who they knew. Even if Northville accepted 50 more students than they should per year (I don't think this occurs), that would only skew the numbers by a percentage or two. So I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Northville' school demographic numbers are going to be the same whether they accept 5 or 55. Surely you don't believe they're falsely accepting hundreds of kids into the district who are ineligible.

Last edited by pojack; 06-29-2017 at 10:53 PM..
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Old 06-29-2017, 10:44 PM
 
169 posts, read 128,349 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopygirlmi View Post
Yeah - when we looked there in 2015, the prices were just ridiculous for what was being offered. You won't find a move-in ready house for under $350K. That's just the reality. Our house in Lyon was move in ready and at our price point. We started looking in Novi/South Lyon/Lyon Township after that realization.
If your definition of "move in ready" is "brand new" then no, you won't find anything less than $350K. But there are several posted on Zillow right now that are below $350K that are move in ready homes that have been updated in the last 10 years. We looked in South Lyon, Lyon Twp, etc, and weren't impressed at all. Cheaply built McMansions are what we saw. Not to mention downtown South Lyon looked run down and too podunk. I felt like I was downriver somewhere. As another poster stated in another thread, South Lyon is Hot right now because of all the new homes. Once the newness of those homes wears off and people start asking themselves why the hell they're driving that far to work everyday to live in a bland community, they'll start moving closer to the city again. I work with someone who is looking to move out of South Lyon because it's too far. Especially in rush hour traffic.
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Old 06-30-2017, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,784 posts, read 1,884,715 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pojack View Post
Which school is more impressive? The one who isn't forced to take in kids from everywhere in order to maintain financial stability. I've heard much more bad than good regarding school of choice from multiple sources. Isn't one of the Grosse Pointe high schools experiencing a lot of problems as a result of school of choice? I know many of the downriver schools are. It may not be reported in the media because it's not politically correct to come out and say that many kids coming in from Detroit or other "disadvantaged" communities are causing problems in many of the choice schools.



Royal Oak has its share of $500K+ homes and people trying to keep up with the Jones'. It's not a good example for the point you're trying to make.
Forced? Or embraces? There's a big difference in learning alongside kids from Huntington Woods, Ferndale, Madison Heights, Oak Park, Bagley, etc. than kids from Eastside Detroit. And based on my prior post I still suggest a diverse school with high test scores from many income demographics impresses me more than a homogenous school where the kids would do well regardless of where they go. So by my own argument, this makes the GP school rather impressive as well, as they consistently rank well too.

Royal Oak has a handful of 500k homes. Even Berkley has 2 for sale right now. But the vast majority of homes in these towns are 200-250k well-kept bungalows or $300k colonials, built from 1940-1960. There's a bit more inherent modesty which comes with that over the entire neighborhoods of $500,000 pre-recession McMansions.
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:05 AM
 
Location: Chicago
909 posts, read 813,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pojack View Post
Royal Oak has its share of $500K+ homes and people trying to keep up with the Jones'. It's not a good example for the point you're trying to make.
Outcomes are highly variable and there is really no way to track it at the high school level with any kind of accuracy. For example, Livonia has long touted the number of their grads who make it to college being in excess of 95%, but they never break that number down by the where of it all. If Livonia is sending a few kids each year to UM and MSU, a bunch to directional Michigan level schools, a much larger percentage to the local community college, and then having the bottom 5% going nowhere at all, what can that really tell you about outcomes? How many earn bachelors degrees, how many go on to earn in excess of $30k, etc.? We really don't know. We also don't know how that breaks down... what percentage of the highest achievers there come from Livonia's poorer sections? My graduating class sent a couple of kids to UM, in the same year the graduating class at the wealthier high school (one that students COULDN'T transfer into, even with school of choice within the district) sent a lot more to Ann Arbor as well as kids to Oberlin and one to an Ivy. What does that mean? How many awesome outcomes at Royal Oak High are coming from those kids from Southfield being taken in relative to the ones from the wealthy Royal Oak families? There's no way of knowing.

His point is well taken, school rankings are often comically over exaggerated as though your child is doomed unless they get to go to the bestest of the best grade schools. It's simply untrue, nature and nurture can combine to overcome quite a lot... a two income, college educated, upper middle class couple could send their kids to the worst schools around and still probably produce a college ready 18 year old with a decent list of acceptance letters.

This works better for colleges because they maintain reams of demographic data on alumni that track exactly where they go and what they do. There has been a lot of data out recently thanks to some New York Times studies suggesting that schools like Cal State, Bakersfield have better outcomes in terms of household income than UCLA. That is to say that 80% of CS-B students who are from the bottom fifth of households end up in the top three fifths. But these numbers are obscured by how wealthy elite colleges are, they often have less social mobility because the average incomes of their student's parents are in the six figure range... but the data still shows that the poorer kids who get into elite colleges do better. CS-B may be a good way into the middle class for more students, but if you are choosing between both UCLA is the better bet to get that six figure income.

Last edited by brodie734; 06-30-2017 at 08:14 AM..
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