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Old 04-15-2008, 07:59 AM
 
Location: SE Michigan
262 posts, read 751,649 times
Reputation: 89

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I would say this tread falls on the shoulders of the Parents, they blame the schools yet most can't get off the couch to make it to their kids school when it comes to problems, it seems they want the problems fixed as long as they don't have to be involed. kinda like out of sight out of mind. this is what the problem Detroit has, everyone wants someone else to fix it for them. I mean come on look at the Mayor and his Grandstanding and the City Council calling each other names, This is were the problems lie, these people who are in Charge look like a bunch of street kids fighting over "It's my Ball!" and I don't want to play with you. what a JOKE. when are Black folks going to grow up and take a stand against all the BS. I know a lot of Black people and most are so sick of this. Isn't there anyone who can get the Black People some Respect? it a shame to watch these people on TV.
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Old 04-15-2008, 09:55 PM
 
47,528 posts, read 65,683,547 times
Reputation: 22383
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Thousand View Post
Have you actually hung out in Detroit?

One in 1,000 might-- might-- drop out to support their families. However, "chillin'" is quite a temptation... Not to mention, a part time job at McDonald's is sufficient to pay rent in Detroit... and plenty of kids work a PT job and go to school.

Jobs for Detroit kids aren't that hard to come by... for those seeking to "support their families."... atleast not until a couple years ago.

And the diplomas aren't worthless. They'll get you into a community college and/or be sufficient to check the "yes" box on an application that asks if you have it.

Grow up and check out the real world before you dispense your perspective on it.

A GED will get you alot of the same thing a high school diploma gets.

With the acceptance of GEDs that is so common now, many kids just get bored of school and figure why bother.

In the part of the country I'm in it's considered discrimination to require a high school diploma for most jobs and best to leave it off a job ad. HR types will say it discriminates against certain minorities to require a diploma, and a diploma doesn't guarantee any particular job skill or even that someone can read or perform simple math. Many job ads today will have "diploma or GED".
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Old 04-16-2008, 09:11 PM
 
4,200 posts, read 9,988,436 times
Reputation: 3595
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
A GED will get you alot of the same thing a high school diploma gets.

With the acceptance of GEDs that is so common now, many kids just get bored of school and figure why bother.

In the part of the country I'm in it's considered discrimination to require a high school diploma for most jobs and best to leave it off a job ad. HR types will say it discriminates against certain minorities to require a diploma, and a diploma doesn't guarantee any particular job skill or even that someone can read or perform simple math. Many job ads today will have "diploma or GED".

Not true at all. First off its not racist. stop crying racism like a baby.

Second of all I wouldnt hire anyone without a HS degree. Not being able to graduate HS shows that you grew up in a family that doesnt care, you dont care, and you have absolutely no work ethic.
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Old 04-16-2008, 10:42 PM
 
47,528 posts, read 65,683,547 times
Reputation: 22383
Quote:
Originally Posted by GiantRutgersfan View Post
Not true at all. First off its not racist. stop crying racism like a baby.

Second of all I wouldnt hire anyone without a HS degree. Not being able to graduate HS shows that you grew up in a family that doesnt care, you dont care, and you have absolutely no work ethic.
First of all it is true. I've sat in management meetings where we were told NOT to advertise a job by saying a high school diploma is required because that can be construed as discrimination because in this part of the country many people didn't finish high school -- this part of the country isn't Michigan. You'd be automatically disqualifying over half the latino population here if you required a diploma and obviously that isn't going to go over well with that group.

Many places here apparently follow that "standard" and so dropping out becomes not too much a problem. I didn't say I agree with it because I believe it just lowers expectations. I happen to know kids here who say they'll just get a GED because it'll get them the same that a diploma does. Again -- I don't agree with these policies and I believe they all contribute to a high drop out rate.
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Old 04-17-2008, 08:09 AM
 
Location: At my computador
2,057 posts, read 3,254,272 times
Reputation: 510
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
First of all it is true. I've sat in management meetings where we were told NOT to advertise a job by saying a high school diploma is required because that can be construed as discrimination because in this part of the country many people didn't finish high school -- this part of the country isn't Michigan. You'd be automatically disqualifying over half the latino population here if you required a diploma and obviously that isn't going to go over well with that group.

Many places here apparently follow that "standard" and so dropping out becomes not too much a problem. I didn't say I agree with it because I believe it just lowers expectations. I happen to know kids here who say they'll just get a GED because it'll get them the same that a diploma does. Again -- I don't agree with these policies and I believe they all contribute to a high drop out rate.
I don't think you responded to the point. He said that requesting a diploma was not racist. You didn't respond to that, but instead stated that someone in your company says it is as if to imply "because Ed down the street says it's racist, it is racist."

I'd be interested in knowing the rationale behind calling it racist rather than just including a stipulation "GED acceptable for immigrants."

Back on topic, I think you're right that the beleif that a GED is comparable to a diploma would cause a small increase in drop-out rates. However, I don't think that can be used to defend the school system because they're supposed to be delivering a product that is desirable. If their product is undesirable-- as demonstrated in the number-- then they should be disbanded.

However, (floating back off topic a little) Detroit's forced to continue suffering the ills of socialism by being force-fed a product that isn't wanted.
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Old 04-18-2008, 07:46 AM
 
47,528 posts, read 65,683,547 times
Reputation: 22383
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Thousand View Post
I don't think you responded to the point. He said that requesting a diploma was not racist. You didn't respond to that, but instead stated that someone in your company says it is as if to imply "because Ed down the street says it's racist, it is racist."

I'd be interested in knowing the rationale behind calling it racist rather than just including a stipulation "GED acceptable for immigrants."

Back on topic, I think you're right that the beleif that a GED is comparable to a diploma would cause a small increase in drop-out rates. However, I don't think that can be used to defend the school system because they're supposed to be delivering a product that is desirable. If their product is undesirable-- as demonstrated in the number-- then they should be disbanded.

However, (floating back off topic a little) Detroit's forced to continue suffering the ills of socialism by being force-fed a product that isn't wanted.
I also don't agree with the idea that it is racist to require for example a janitor or cook to have a high school diploma, but in this part of the country because so few Mexicans have diplomas or can speak English, it's considered discrimination to require a diploma for those jobs that don't require a license of some kind. Meaning if you post a job that doesn't require a professional license, you should not require a diploma for that job. I don't agree with these policies even for immigrants. I think that a diploma should be required for just about any job.

I was just saying that I think much of this mentality is why so many kids decide why stay in school -- they don't believe having a diploma will make much difference to them. They figure they'll just go for a GED. That's the common reason for the high drop out rate in my part of the country.

I kid dropping out doesn't say to himself "I want to make my life difficult and be jobless so I'll just quit school", he says "Schools boring, I don't need to stay here, I can get a GED and it counts the same", or "I'm having my second child, I just don't have the time and the government is taking pretty good care of me now".

If we're ever going to increase graduation rates, that's the thinking we have to consider.
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Old 04-18-2008, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Yale, MI
21 posts, read 73,131 times
Reputation: 16
My fiance is taking classes in teacher certification, so I'm starting to learn a lot about what teachers are being taught in their schooling, and here is some insight:

We all know that the DPS system has been in shambles for YEARS, but ever since the passing of "No Child Left Behind" things have gotten worse, and will only continue to get worse. For those of you who don't really know what No Child Left Behind is, it's basically a royal "screwing over" of already failing school systems. Funding through this system, is only based on the performance of the students once they take an exam sort of like Michigan's MEAP test. The school systems that do well get more funding, and the school systems that don't do well get less or no funding at all. Which seems reverse of how it should be. Shouldn't we try everything we can to get a failing school system up to par with everyone else? When you have cases like Detroit, who can't even afford text books for all of their students, it's no wonder they can't do well on those exams! Because of that, they won't get funding for new text books so everyone has one! Another major problem with the system is that "mentally handicaped" kids are being forced into the same classrooms as other students and HAVE to take the EXACT SAME EXAM as everyone else. My fiance is student teaching at a school were there is an autistic girl in his class having to do the exact same work as everyone else, graded the exact same way. Luckily for her, the school district is small and she has an aid that follows her from class to class to help her out, but there is no possible way we can do that for every child with a learning disability. Now, since the children with a learning disability have to take the exact same exam as everyone else, don't you think that the number of students doing well on that exam will be less?

Another problem that No Child Left Behind is giving teachers and the kids in particular, is that teachers are just "teaching to the test" which means the teachers are only teaching the kids things that they know will be on that test, and frankly test material is BORING and very unrelatable to real life! It's no wonder kids get bored easily and want to drop out, or won't do their homework, or whatever the case is. Then, they drop out because like someone said, a job at McDonald's is pretty sufficient to rent an apartment in Detroit, then they have kids (if they didn't already), kids who they can't help with their homework because they don't know the answer to the problem because a) they weren't taught it, or b) didn't bother sticking around until the end of 12th grade to find out the answer!

There are so many things I want to say on this topic, but I don't want to run too long!
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:19 AM
 
Location: At my computador
2,057 posts, read 3,254,272 times
Reputation: 510
Quote:
Originally Posted by ean85 View Post
Funding through this system, is only based on the performance of the students once they take an exam sort of like Michigan's MEAP test. The school systems that do well get more funding, and the school systems that don't do well get less or no funding at all.
Every organization has a culture. If a culture is incapable of energizing to attain the only goal expected of the organization, then, by gradually reducing resources, the organization has the opportunity to purge the elements that are causing failure. It's negative reinforcement (IIRC.)

If the culture is so God-forsakenly corrupt, then it must be crushed. NCLB enables this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e
Shouldn't we try everything we can to get a failing school system up to par with everyone else?
No. You should do everything you can, within reason, to educate a child not reward crooked people.

Further, how much do the people of Michigan owe the people of Detroit?

NCLB pays you for what you deliver. It discontinues donating to parasites.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e
When you have cases like Detroit, who can't even afford text books for all of their students, it's no wonder they can't do well on those exams! Because of that, they won't get funding for new text books so everyone has one!
What are text books needed for? How many facts per day must be memorized in school and committed to long-term memory? Less than five?

Write them on the board. Chalk's cheap.

Text books aren't necessary. More frequently than 9 out of 10 times, they are used strictly as a collection of exercises that kids have to copy from anyway.

The collection of human knowledge that's relevant to public education doesn't change that rapidly that requires updates of books.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e
Another major problem with the system is that "mentally handicaped" kids are being forced into the same classrooms as other students and HAVE to take the EXACT SAME EXAM as everyone else.
Schools get more money for them, right? They need to show something for it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e
Another problem that No Child Left Behind is giving teachers and the kids in particular, is that teachers are just "teaching to the test" which means the teachers are only teaching the kids things that they know will be on that test
And thank God for that. Education is nothing more than memorization of facts. It's not a bully pulpit from which teachers can indoctrinate children. It's not intended as a social outlet. It's a building where a person who knows facts gives those facts.

That's it. Turning it into something else is a violation of the students, the families and the taxpayers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e
and frankly test material is BORING and very unrelatable to real life!
Then shorten school days. Dispense the knowledge. Answer questions. Leave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e
There are so many things I want to say on this topic, but I don't want to run too long!
Me too. Such as, the reason you're looking at leaving Michigan is the consequence of the beliefs you hold... the belief that the world should bend to those who are incapable or unwilling and those who are capable and willing-- such as yourself-- should be required to support them.

Michigan is falling because of it. Support success. If administators in one school figure out a recipe for educating students with what's available, others will come. The school that is failing will die and leave a vacuum (need/demand.) Others-- those who are decent people and not the scum who was fired already-- will come in and apply the discoveries of the other school.

Everyone benefits when success is rewarded. Everyone suffers when failure is rewarded.
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