Why Not Move To Detroit? The Hype Isn't True. (St. Louis: homes, rent)

[brri]

Poverty = crime. What a joke.

Do you think Detroit is the only spot in the US that has poverty? If your so educated I've got news for you.

Ever heard of Appalachia? This is the poorest part of the US. Poverty here is beyond what Detroit has ever seen.

Yet you will not I repeat will not find the crime in Appalachia as you do in Detroit.

I just love when people try to ague poverty = crime. Then I thow this little scenerio at them and leave them with their mouth dropped open.

We all know why Detroit is the waste of space it is.



Appalachia is mostly rural. Do you think that maybe there is a correlation between living in high density areas and crime? I was a Sociology major and many sociologists believe that living in compact spaces contributes to crime. Many neighborhoods in large cities are both poor and densely populated (unlike Appalachia) and their crime rate is higher than in other parts of the same metro area-regardless of race.

[Milliano]

Originally Posted by brri

Appalachia is mostly rural. Do you think that maybe there is a correlation between living in high density areas and crime? I was a Sociology major and many sociologists believe that living in compact spaces contributes to crime. Many neighborhoods in large cities are both poor and densely populated (unlike Appalachia) and their crime rate is higher than in other parts of the same metro area-regardless of race.

I wonder why crime is so low then in dense European cities. And East Asian cities. And lower in virtually every other large city in the highly developed world, compared with Detroit.

If density causes crime, then why crime is so high in small cities with a large black population? Compton isn't exactly dense, is it? It's a suburb full of single family homes. Or how about Gary Indiana? Yet the murder rate is more similar to countries like Colombia and South Africa than any US small city.

I come from an area in Michigan that has a lower per capita income than Detroit. Most people who live there, live in small towns. Similar to places like Detroit and Gary, it has lost a huge amount of economic base and jobs in recent decades. It consists of people whose ancestors came to the USA to work very low wage manual labor jobs 100 years ago. They generally had no education and didn't speak English. They were discriminated against, not really treated as human, by the white Americans who ran their businesses and controlled the politics. The schools get just as little funding as they do in a city like Detroit. The cost of utilities is much higher than in Detroit. It lacks public transportation and the weather can be atrocious. Around 15-20% of residents live below the "poverty line". All these factors that you might think would make for a place with a lot of poverty, crime, unemployment, and uneducated citizens.

And yet the students score on standardized tests above the Michigan average. They tend to go to college. The crime rate there is extremely low. Coincidentally ( ), it's mostly white.

Guess which state has the highest percentage of its black residents incarcerated? It's Iowa... a place with no dense cities to speak of. I wouldn't exactly call Detroit "dense" either. Some of the worst parts of that city consist of only sporadic housing, and mostly empty lots. Plenty of unintentional green space.

The "bad schools" excuse is bogus. There have been scientific studies done on places where poor black inner city residents got to switch to highly performing schools in their city... and the results show that they do no better, if not worse, than they did at their "bad school". There was a major study on this in Chicago.

[michiganirish]

Originally Posted by Brother WilliamX

. The bad media publicity is always told to make race a issue. One can get robbed,beatup, and shot in New York,Beverly Hills,West Bloomfield, just as quicker then one can in Detroit.

This is NOT a race issue.....

You forgot one thing..... today Detroit was officially designated as the most dangerous city in the United States.

I think you'll lose this argument.

[brri]

Originally Posted by Milliano

I wonder why crime is so low then in dense European cities. And East Asian cities. And lower in virtually every other large city in the highly developed world, compared with Detroit.

If density causes crime, then why crime is so high in small cities with a large black population? Compton isn't exactly dense, is it? It's a suburb full of single family homes. Or how about Gary Indiana? Yet the murder rate is more similar to countries like Colombia and South Africa than any US small city.

I come from an area in Michigan that has a lower per capita income than Detroit. Most people who live there, live in small towns. Similar to places like Detroit and Gary, it has lost a huge amount of economic base and jobs in recent decades. It consists of people whose ancestors came to the USA to work very low wage manual labor jobs 100 years ago. They generally had no education and didn't speak English. They were discriminated against, not really treated as human, by the white Americans who ran their businesses and controlled the politics. The schools get just as little funding as they do in a city like Detroit. The cost of utilities is much higher than in Detroit. It lacks public transportation and the weather can be atrocious. Around 15-20% of residents live below the "poverty line". All these factors that you might think would make for a place with a lot of poverty, crime, unemployment, and uneducated citizens.

And yet the students score on standardized tests above the Michigan average. They tend to go to college. The crime rate there is extremely low. Coincidentally ( ), it's mostly white.

Guess which state has the highest percentage of its black residents incarcerated? It's Iowa... a place with no dense cities to speak of. I wouldn't exactly call Detroit "dense" either. Some of the worst parts of that city consist of only sporadic housing, and mostly empty lots. Plenty of unintentional green space.

The "bad schools" excuse is bogus. There have been scientific studies done on places where poor black inner city residents got to switch to highly performing schools in their city... and the results show that they do no better, if not worse, than they did at their "bad school". There was a major study on this in Chicago.

You said: If density causes crime, then why crime is so high in small cities with a large black population?

No one said that density "causes crime" that's how you worded it. I said that sociologists and sociological studies have shown that poverty combined with many people living within tight spaces does in fact contribute to the escalation of crime. Based on this theory levels of criminal activity will always be relative. That is to say that even in Europe the more densly populated areas would be relatively significantly higher than non-urban areas. (btw, Paris is full of crime and so isn't London, ect. Just not USA levels but relative to other areas of Europe, very high).
Again I'll say it. Poverty does contirbute to crime. Please believe me I'm not condoning crime at all. I believe that every man should live as responsible citizens regardless of what advantages/disadvantages that they find themselves in. I just know that certain socio-economic and environment factors play a role in affecting how individuals behave, at least to some extent.

Crime in mostly black areas is almost entirely black-on-black crime. People of all races have criminal tendencies. Whites just tend not to commit crime against their own but many have been notorious for perpetrating crimes against entire races of people. For instance, practically exterminating the American Indians. African slaves, Jews. The plundering of India and other Asian communities all for material gain. Ever heard of white collar crime, Enron, ect. Need I go on?
Human beings by nature lust for what others have and when they cannot have it, they take it. That what crime is. Too bad we try to relegate crime to certain people groups instead of the human race.

[Milliano]

Originally Posted by brri

Crime in mostly black areas is almost entirely black-on-black crime. People of all races have criminal tendencies. Whites just tend not to commit crime against their own but many have been notorious for perpetrating crimes against entire races of people.

You're making things up. Statistics show that the vast majority of crimes committed by whites involve white victims (especially homicide).

Too bad we try to relegate crime to certain people groups instead of the human race.

That probably has something to do with blacks in the USA having a crime rate about 10 times higher than whites (and that doesn't account for all the unreported crime that tends to occur in poor urban areas). And basically every country full of black people has far more crime than any country full of white people. And basically every country with mostly white people consists of the blacks in said country committing a disproportionate amount of crime (many countries in Europe). I'd love to ignore the race factor, but the crime differences are just too huge to ignore.

If density is a factor, then why is NYC's crime rate so low? It has a large black population. Has the poorest urban county in the whole nation. And is by far the most dense city (and county, the Bronx) in the USA.

You forget the difference between correlation and causation. Obviously in areas with mostly apartment complexes are going to consist of more criminals per capita than places where people can afford their own single family homes. It's not that they become criminals when they move in... they already were criminals before moving in. Large cities tend to have more poor people... by choice or no choice they tend to live in cities, whether it be in the USA or France. Smaller towns and rural areas don't have the infrastructure to support them. It's mostly just different in the developing world, where there tends to be more poverty in the rural agricultural areas.

[brri]

Originally Posted by Milliano

You're making things up. Statistics show that the vast majority of crimes committed by whites involve white victims (especially homicide).



That probably has something to do with blacks in the USA having a crime rate about 10 times higher than whites (and that doesn't account for all the unreported crime that tends to occur in poor urban areas). And basically every country full of black people has far more crime than any country full of white people. And basically every country with mostly white people consists of the blacks in said country committing a disproportionate amount of crime (many countries in Europe). I'd love to ignore the race factor, but the crime differences are just too huge to ignore.

If density is a factor, then why is NYC's crime rate so low? It has a large black population. Has the poorest urban county in the whole nation. And is by far the most dense city (and county, the Bronx) in the USA.

You forget the difference between correlation and causation. Obviously in areas with mostly apartment complexes are going to consist of more criminals per capita than places where people can afford their own single family homes. It's not that they become criminals when they move in... they already were criminals before moving in. Large cities tend to have more poor people... by choice or no choice they tend to live in cities, whether it be in the USA or France. Smaller towns and rural areas don't have the infrastructure to support them. It's mostly just different in the developing world, where there tends to be more poverty in the rural agricultural areas.

NYC has less crime than before simply because their mayor took drastic measures to curb it and clean up Times Square and other notorious urban enclaves of that city.
Again, ALL races have criminal tendencies. Blacks do indeed have a disproportionate crime rate, especially in recent history but whites, as I have pointed out to you have perpetrated atrocious crimes again entire peoples. It may not be the category of crime that the FBI statistic use to measure criminal activity, but it IS CRIME! Is 'white collar' crime not considered crime in your eyes? Well, guess who commits a disproportionate amount of it. Guess.
Let me ask again, was the breaking of one treaty after another before and after Wounded Knee not a crime against humanity. What about Jim Crow laws
introduced to cripple the forward progress of blacks after so many promises made? Was that a crime?
And also, how you point out that other racial gruops can come into the USA and make it so easily. Well guess who paved the way for them? By the way, I recently returned form living overseas and found that foreigners, when they come to America outperform ALL racial groups in terms of education, average income and motivation. They have a real reason to be motivated. For many, if they were to return to where they came from they face the very real possibility of disease, severe poverty or even death.
As for the African-America dilemma, remeber that no other racial group came here in chains. No other group had been shut out of participation in the so-called American Dream for so long.
Are blacks perfect? Far from it. But neither are whites or any other group even remotely perfect in their behavior.
You only see the glass half empty but considering where this race came from and the many, many, many shining examples of those form among them who have overcome all odds to excell, causes me to see the glass half-full and climbing!

[THASPECIAL]

Originally Posted by soyezheureux

I think Affirmative Action is sort of like another point for me. Maybe it's not a perfect system. Okay, it's far from perfect. But let's look at the facts for a minute. Pretend that you are a poor, black kid who lives in Detroit. Let's say that you grow up in a single parent household, and you have three other siblings. I think this is at least a fairly common scenario. Let's pretend that you want to succeed in school, and get a good job, and make a lot of money so that you can come back to your old neighborhood and help other kids who had to grow up the way you did, so that more kids can have a chance to succeed. But now let's say that you go to a really "bad" public school. Not only are the books out of date, and the roofs leaky, but it's dangerous to get to school, and it's dangerous INSIDE of your own school. You will probably have a hard time focusing on doing your homework and studying for tests when you're fearing for you safety in school and at home, and then when you're struggling to even have enough to eat at home, and helping to take care of your younger siblings while your mom is at her second job in the evening. But let's assume that you DO persevere and get a 3.5 GPA and you take all the college tests you need to take and you score well on them. And you submit your college application to U of M and other colleges in the area. Or, what the hell, to Ivy League schools, Notre Dame, UCLA, anywhere in the country. And let's say, that the same age as you, in nearby Grosse Point, is another kid, who doesn't really know what he wants to do with his life, who isn't even sure that he WANTS to go to college, but he knows that that's just what you're supposed to do after high school. He doesn't really NEED to go, or to even work because his family is well off enough for him to be "set" for life if he needed to be. He got similar grades and similar test scores to the kid from Detroit. He submits applications to all of the same schools. Neither kid even checks the box that asks for race, because...oh I dont know, it's been eliminated to make things more "fair." The schools see only the similar scores, and that one kid went to a school in Grosse Pointe, and the other went to a Detroit inner city high school. Every single time, these colleges would accept the white kid. His school is tougher, and usually produces high quality students, so he must be the better student.

I guess my point is that, no matter how hard some kids might try in these inner city schools, the deck is SO HEAVILY stacked against them, that it's literally not possible for some of them to succeed. Let's even assume that by some stroke of luck, they do accept this kid into a "good" school (although it's not likely), can his family even afford it? Even with scholarships, grants, and some student loans, there's a breaking point at which this family can't make it any more. The Grosse Pointe "example" kid does not have this obstacle to overcome. I think it's pretty clear that most Black kids get a worse education, and it's pretty naive to blame it on the students. They can't help where they go to school. So then it's harder to get a further education, which makes it harder to get a good job, which makes it harder to earn decent money, which makes it harder for people from within the community to improve the community, which makes it unlikely that the schools are going to get better, and the cycle perpetuates itself.

So I'll agree that Affirmative Action is not the best plan I've ever heard of in my life. But to get rid of it and not replace it with something better...to just get rid of it...is irresponsible. How can we not at least try to do SOMETHING to help those kids who need it the most?

But I also admit that, as a white person, I guess I do want it both ways. I want to see black people who live in the city get a fair chance at life and a good education and every other opportunity that white people get. At the same time, I don't think I should feel "guilty" for being white. I shouldn't be denied any opportunities just because of my skin color. I'm not sure that it's possible for me to have it both ways. I don't really have a better solution. At least not one that doesn't involve some philanthropist donating MILLIONS of dollars to inner city schools in Detroit and across the country and rebuilding the foundation of black education from the ground up. Everything else would follow. Or I guess the same thing could be achieved by raising the taxes on the richest 1% of the country by just a small amount...an amount that they wouldn't even miss. But of course, that would just be a silly idea...

I can agree with this.....the only thing i dont agree with is young blacks in the suburban schools that wanna be thugs and use alot of excuses......

[THASPECIAL]

Originally Posted by RedWingsFan

I believe we get out of life what we put into it. You create your own destiny. If you want to succeed in life you will, no matter what. .

What happens when you've worked so hard and a wildfire burns your house down or your wife just leaves you for some reason or a hurricane blows your house to the ground?

[The Icy River Vagabond]

Don't live in an area prone to natural disasters....

[deslok]

Or have insurance.
I just know the reasons friends of mine left in the 60's, black people rioting. It is well beyond more then one race doing the crime now in Detroit. I would argue though that it comes from a culture of gang/thug mentality that has spawned into all races, and been allowed to flourish in areas where cities allowed it to over a long period of time.