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Old 01-03-2009, 02:29 PM
 
999 posts, read 3,024,265 times
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Quote:
So are you suggesting that blacks like living in crime infested communities, don't like living in nice neighborhoods and don't value sending their kids to good schools? Do you think blacks propensity for LOVE and DESIRE is less than whites? I don't get it. Again......look at SouthField Michigan, which has nice middle class neighborhoods, low rates of crime (most crime in the city is related to Northland Shopping Center)......it went from majority white to Majority black.
It doesn't matter what they "like". I'd "like" to have a Mercedes Benz. I don't want to work 3 jobs to afford one. That doesn't mean I'm ENTITLED to drive a Mercedes Benz. And again, it doesn't matter what anyone's propensity for "desire" is. What matters is their propensity to WORK to achieve what they desire. When was the last time you saw someone in a crime-infested community picking up garbage in the neighborood park, cutting the grass and grooming the ball field? The park across the street from me in Detroit was only maintained because I had a riding mower and maintained it myself. That included picking up the broken glass, enlisting neighbors to help picking up the McDonald's bags and chasing out the dope man, one way or another.

I suggest that many people of all races like sitting on their a$ces more than they like pulling weeds and picking up broken beer bottles.

Effective "community involvement" or "community activism" means a lot more than just whining to the government and the newspapers that someone else is better off than you are.
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:18 PM
 
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So it still comes down to some deficiency on behalf of blacks, notwithstanding their desire to have things that the average white person has. Whites have it better because they don’t have this deficiency gene that triggers laziness to the same degree as blacks and prevents them from being motivated to get off their tails and make life better. I wonder when this laziness gene was discovered and isolated and found endemic to the black population. Do you actually think that you are the ONLY person in the city of Detroit that goes out and cleans up the trash in their communities? Please……that happens all the time….although not enough to maintain the vast lots were trash is dumped by passerby’s.

People try to clean their stealth racial slights by suggesting, in the end, that ALL RACES....blah blah blah....but if all races has this propensity to be lazy, as you suggest, then why is the 85% black city of Detroit the topic of discussion and not some area that is 85% white with the same problems?
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Old 01-03-2009, 05:05 PM
 
542 posts, read 892,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
So it still comes down to some deficiency on behalf of blacks, notwithstanding their desire to have things that the average white person has. Whites have it better because they don’t have this deficiency gene that triggers laziness to the same degree as blacks and prevents them from being motivated to get off their tails and make life better. I wonder when this laziness gene was discovered and isolated and found endemic to the black population. Do you actually think that you are the ONLY person in the city of Detroit that goes out and cleans up the trash in their communities? Please……that happens all the time….although not enough to maintain the vast lots were trash is dumped by passerby’s.

People try to clean their stealth racial slights by suggesting, in the end, that ALL RACES....blah blah blah....but if all races has this propensity to be lazy, as you suggest, then why is the 85% black city of Detroit the topic of discussion and not some area that is 85% white with the same problems?

i don't fully understand this statement, i believe your talking in circles. could you pleasr put it in lamons terms.

as a reply to the statement where you quoted me earlier. i was responding to someone(i don't recall who) saying whites aren't willing to live next to blacks because they are racist. i was nerely pointing out how race has nothing to do with being racist. we move out of a neighborhood when the crime rate goes up and the school system suffers.
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Old 01-04-2009, 07:27 AM
 
999 posts, read 3,024,265 times
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Quote:
So it still comes down to some deficiency on behalf of blacks, notwithstanding their desire to have things that the average white person has. Whites have it better because they don’t have this deficiency gene that triggers laziness to the same degree as blacks and prevents them from being motivated to get off their tails and make life better.
Here's what I did to achieve my "desire". I stayed out of trouble, got a good job with nothing more than a high school education, didn't have kids until I got married, kept my property in good shape, invested my money, didn't spend more than I earned, only relied on credit to buy houses and sometimes cars, and I keep my kids out of trouble and sacrifice for their education. I rely more on myself to achieve my desire than on other people and goverenment, and I don't blame the rich guy for me not being able to drive the car I'm desirous of or send my kids to Harvard.

I doubt it's genetic. The sense of entitlement and the reliance on a government nanny state are learned. People of any race can either move out of Detroit if they can afford it, or stay and make their little section better. Some can't afford to leave, but refuse to do anything about making their neighborhoods better. You seem to be telling me they're entitled to live a nice lifestyle typically found in the suburbs without paying for it, or without making any effort to realize a better life in Detroit. How much effort does it take to pick up garbage whether it's your own or someone else's? I seem to recall someone posting here who was working with Blight Busters. They were picking up garbage on someone else's street and residents were sitting on their porch laughing at them. I don't care what race we're talking about. Some of us seem to think people are entitled to a certain way of life while making little to no effort, INCLUDING paying their taxes, to achieve that end.

"It's the slumlords' fault."

BS. It's not the landlord's responsibility to keep the backyard clear of garbage, junk cars and chained-up dogs. Nor is it his or her job to keep living room furniture off of the front porch and yard and pick up garbage blowing in the wind. Have YOU organized any neighborhood clean-up efforts or documented any dope houses and testified against the occupants?

It seems to me you're more of a "thinker" than a "doer". I'm sorry, but I lead a fairly modest suburban lifestyle in a very mixed-race neighborhood after living in Detroit for a long time. People who do not have what I have aren't entitled to it just because they "desire" it.

Quote:
Do you actually think that you are the ONLY person in the city of Detroit that goes out and cleans up the trash in their communities? Please……that happens all the time….although not enough to maintain the vast lots were trash is dumped by passerby’s.
No, I think I'm one of the few people who maintained a city playground though. And I'm only talking about 10 or 15 years ago. I don't do it anymore. NOW, I would probably say that maybe 1 out of 50 Detroit residents make an effort. And it's probably much less than that based on what I see in the "real" Detroit neighborhoods (outside of the few areas people talk about that are "nice" areas of Detroit where the taxes are $10,000.00 and up per year).

What's your take on this: How come Hamtramck generally looks so much nicer than Detroit?

Last edited by and the; 01-04-2009 at 08:02 AM..
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Old 01-04-2009, 08:22 AM
 
542 posts, read 892,146 times
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Originally Posted by and the View Post
Here's what I did to achieve my "desire". I stayed out of trouble, got a good job with nothing more than a high school education, didn't have kids until I got married, kept my property in good shape, invested my money, didn't spend more than I earned, only relied on credit to buy houses and sometimes cars, and I keep my kids out of trouble and sacrifice for their education. I rely more on myself to achieve my desire than on other people and goverenment, and I don't blame the rich guy for me not being able to drive the car I'm desirous of or send my kids to Harvard.

I doubt it's genetic. The sense of entitlement and the reliance on a government nanny state are learned. People of any race can either move out of Detroit if they can afford it, or stay and make their little section better. Some can't afford to leave, but refuse to do anything about making their neighborhoods better. You seem to be telling me they're entitled to live a nice lifestyle typically found in the suburbs without paying for it, or without making any effort to realize a better life in Detroit. How much effort does it take to pick up garbage whether it's your own or someone else's? I seem to recall someone posting here who was working with Blight Busters. They were picking up garbage on someone else's street and residents were sitting on their porch laughing at them. I don't care what race we're talking about. Some of us seem to think people are entitled to a certain way of life while making little to no effort, INCLUDING paying their taxes, to achieve that end.

"It's the slumlords' fault."

BS. It's not the landlord's responsibility to keep the backyard clear of garbage, junk cars and chained-up dogs. Nor is it his or her job to keep living room furniture off of the front porch and yard and pick up garbage blowing in the wind. Have YOU organized any neighborhood clean-up efforts or documented any dope houses and testified against the occupants?

It seems to me you're more of a "thinker" than a "doer". I'm sorry, but I lead a fairly modest suburban lifestyle in a very mixed-race neighborhood after living in Detroit for a long time. People who do not have what I have aren't entitled to it just because they "desire" it.



No, I think I'm one of the few people who maintained a city playground though. And I'm only talking about 10 or 15 years ago. I don't do it anymore. NOW, I would probably say that maybe 1 out of 50 Detroit residents make an effort. And it's probably much less than that based on what I see in the "real" Detroit neighborhoods (outside of the few areas people talk about that are "nice" areas of Detroit where the taxes are $10,000.00 and up per year).

What's your take on this: How come Hamtramck generally looks so much nicer than Detroit?
wow. i couldn't possibly say it better. i'd be more than happy to have this person as my neighbor. i don't care if this person or anyone like him/her be white or black.
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Old 01-04-2009, 12:02 PM
 
999 posts, read 3,024,265 times
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Quote:
then why is the 85% black city of Detroit the topic of discussion and not some area that is 85% white with the same problems?
Because it's the "Detroit" forum maybe?!?!!? Because I don't live in Appalachia, I live just outside of Detroit, after fleeing Detroit like my ancestors fled Appalachia. YOU'RE the one who is injecting race into this. I don't care if Detroit was full of European-Americans who had kids they couldn't afford, let their property decay and relied on the government for everything. I would have left just as sure as I did with an almost all African-American Detroit.

.....and another thing......The Detroit school system is not a failure because of a lack of money. It's a failure because it's required to "teach" a bunch of students whose parents who don't give a damn. I don't care what race they happen to be, it is what it is.

....and yet another thing. If you WANT to talk about an area of European-Americans who desire the life that I have but don't have it instead of Detroit, check out what's going on in Appalachia. Have you heard of Mountaintop Removal Coal Mining? Do you know what happens when a holding tank of millions of gallons of coal sludge gives way, sending the coal through the valley where people live? The European-Americans in that area are exponentially more politically and economically disenfranchised than African-Americans in Detroit, but I bet you never even heard about it. The reason being, they have no political pull, no voice in politics like African Americans do in Detroit, and they live where coal is king. If Detroit suffered a similar industrial disaster, we'd be paying the people who were affected for new houses. Go to the KY, TN or WV forums ans ask about mountaintop removal coal mining.

So forgive me if I don't see Detroiters as somehow more handicapped than anyone else in the year 2009 because the city happens to be majority African-American. The race of people who don't take the initiative to improve their lot despite haveing the ability to do so is incidental to the fact that the reason the place is a pit is because so many people of the same philosophy and lack of values live in the same area. It's getting old, and it's getting more and more generational.

There will always be people of every race who don't give a damn about anything more than having enough to eat, smoke or inject and not freezing to death in the winter. When a bunch of them live in one place, you get a Detroit.

And one more thing. How come the armed forces recruiting centers in Detroit aren't overflowing with young people trying to join the armed forces if times are so economically bad? That was my choice out of high school. My parents certainly weren't going to have me laying around the house after high school whether the reason I didn't have a job was because I was lazy or because I was the hardest worker in the world but there were no jobs available.
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Old 01-04-2009, 12:29 PM
 
542 posts, read 892,146 times
Reputation: 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by and the View Post
Because it's the "Detroit" forum maybe?!?!!? Because I don't live in Appalachia, I live just outside of Detroit, after fleeing Detroit like my ancestors fled Appalachia. YOU'RE the one who is injecting race into this. I don't care if Detroit was full of European-Americans who had kids they couldn't afford, let their property decay and relied on the government for everything. I would have left just as sure as I did with an almost all African-American Detroit.

.....and another thing......The Detroit school system is not a failure because of a lack of money. It's a failure because it's required to "teach" a bunch of students whose parents who don't give a damn. I don't care what race they happen to be, it is what it is.

....and yet another thing. If you WANT to talk about an area of European-Americans who desire the life that I have but don't have it instead of Detroit, check out what's going on in Appalachia. Have you heard of Mountaintop Removal Coal Mining? Do you know what happens when a holding tank of millions of gallons of coal sludge gives way, sending the coal through the valley where people live? The European-Americans in that area are exponentially more politically and economically disenfranchised than African-Americans in Detroit, but I bet you never even heard about it. The reason being, they have no political pull, no voice in politics like African Americans do in Detroit, and they live where coal is king. If Detroit suffered a similar industrial disaster, we'd be paying the people who were affected for new houses. Go to the KY, TN or WV forums ans ask about mountaintop removal coal mining.

So forgive me if I don't see Detroiters as somehow more handicapped than anyone else in the year 2009 because the city happens to be majority African-American. The race of people who don't take the initiative to improve their lot despite haveing the ability to do so is incidental to the fact that the reason the place is a pit is because so many people of the same philosophy and lack of values live in the same area. It's getting old, and it's getting more and more generational.

There will always be people of every race who don't give a damn about anything more than having enough to eat, smoke or inject and not freezing to death in the winter. When a bunch of them live in one place, you get a Detroit.

And one more thing. How come the armed forces recruiting centers in Detroit aren't overflowing with young people trying to join the armed forces if times are so economically bad? That was my choice out of high school. My parents certainly weren't going to have me laying around the house after high school whether the reason I didn't have a job was because I was lazy or because I was the hardest worker in the world but there were no jobs available.
man... preach on. especially the end pqrt about the recruiting centers.
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Old 01-04-2009, 03:29 PM
 
3,909 posts, read 2,362,264 times
Reputation: 1496
Quote:
Originally Posted by and the View Post
Here's what I did to achieve my "desire". I stayed out of trouble, got a good job with nothing more than a high school education, didn't have kids until I got married, kept my property in good shape, invested my money, didn't spend more than I earned, only relied on credit to buy houses and sometimes cars, and I keep my kids out of trouble and sacrifice for their education. I rely more on myself to achieve my desire than on other people and goverenment, and I don't blame the rich guy for me not being able to drive the car I'm desirous of or send my kids to Harvard.

I doubt it's genetic. The sense of entitlement and the reliance on a government nanny state are learned. People of any race can either move out of Detroit if they can afford it, or stay and make their little section better. Some can't afford to leave, but refuse to do anything about making their neighborhoods better. You seem to be telling me they're entitled to live a nice lifestyle typically found in the suburbs without paying for it, or without making any effort to realize a better life in Detroit. How much effort does it take to pick up garbage whether it's your own or someone else's? I seem to recall someone posting here who was working with Blight Busters. They were picking up garbage on someone else's street and residents were sitting on their porch laughing at them. I don't care what race we're talking about. Some of us seem to think people are entitled to a certain way of life while making little to no effort, INCLUDING paying their taxes, to achieve that end.

"It's the slumlords' fault."

BS. It's not the landlord's responsibility to keep the backyard clear of garbage, junk cars and chained-up dogs. Nor is it his or her job to keep living room furniture off of the front porch and yard and pick up garbage blowing in the wind. Have YOU organized any neighborhood clean-up efforts or documented any dope houses and testified against the occupants?

It seems to me you're more of a "thinker" than a "doer". I'm sorry, but I lead a fairly modest suburban lifestyle in a very mixed-race neighborhood after living in Detroit for a long time. People who do not have what I have aren't entitled to it just because they "desire" it.



No, I think I'm one of the few people who maintained a city playground though. And I'm only talking about 10 or 15 years ago. I don't do it anymore. NOW, I would probably say that maybe 1 out of 50 Detroit residents make an effort. And it's probably much less than that based on what I see in the "real" Detroit neighborhoods (outside of the few areas people talk about that are "nice" areas of Detroit where the taxes are $10,000.00 and up per year).

What's your take on this: How come Hamtramck generally looks so much nicer than Detroit?
Well, first, I can negate the anecdotal analysis born from “You” and what you did, as a white person (presumptively) with the anecdotal analysis of “Me” as a black person, which does not fit the characterization portrayed of blacks (by implication) in your anecdotal analysis. We have not established whether you are I or microcosm or anomalies, so it really not fruitful to base any analysis on our lives, experiences and what we have done. Secondly, there are people who did all the things you listed that you did not do…..who happen to be more successful than YOU and people who did all the right things like you AND STILL ENDED UP IN POVERTY.

I don’t know why blacks would have any greater or less sense of entitlement than any other race in America. Oh….maybe because when these “Great Society Programs” were being created by Roosevelt, black rates of poverty was 3 times the rate of whites. Now why were black rates of poverty 3 times the rates of whites in the 30’s and beyond? Well, maybe it had something to do with all the laws against black folks, Jim Crow segregation and rampant discrimination against them. So if these Great Society programs had the effect, or should I say side effect, of creating dependency and entitlement mentality for long term recipients….then the ONLY reason that blacks are infected with this mentality more is because of the poverty society inflicted upon them from racial oppression. Blacks would have less of an entitlement affliction if they had less of a historical poverty affliction that was born from oppression.

Owner occupied communities are always better maintained than rental communities. People have a vested interest in keeping up things that they OWN. Often times when a landlord is not making needed repairs on properties that they are renting out, the tenants will retaliate with abuse. They will treat the place like dung. You have a lot of landlords trying to get sexual favors from their female renters or doing other things that generally result in a disrespect of the property as a reaction from tenants. That said, the vast majority of the people in Detroit keep up the houses that they live in. What you describe is not the norm of the city…..not even close. It’s like all people want to do is highlight the negate things that go on in Detroit. That is the problem with SE Michigan. It cannibalizes itself. It’s the area biggest critic, as opposed to advocate and creates a self fulfilling prophecy.

The owners of properties in Hamtramck keep them up, whether they are rental or owner occupied. Not many slum lords in Hamtramck looking to simply get a section-8 check sent to their comfortable bedroom community in the burbs each month from the state and not keep up their properties. Obviously the owners are a little more careful about who they rent to.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 01-04-2009 at 03:42 PM..
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:58 PM
 
999 posts, read 3,024,265 times
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How come I keep saying "Detroit" and you keep saying "black"?

Quote:
Blacks would have less of an entitlement affliction if they had less of a historical poverty affliction that was born from oppression.
How much time must pass before we can reasonably consider this historical poverty affliction to be irrelevent? When can we consider a black person in Detroit, who despite years of affirmative action and the fact that 90 percent of Detroit is black and controlled by black people....when can we consider him lazy when he can't get a job as opposed to historically afflicted? At what point can we consider him irresponsible for having more kids than he can afford to support? And at what point can we consider the city of Detroit to be more afflicted with lazy people or criminal people than historically afflicted black people? I'm guessing you're going to tell me that that point will never be reached. How come so many black people from Detroit can succeed and leave (or stay as the case may be) when so many others can't seem to get past the historical affliction?

Last edited by and the; 01-04-2009 at 10:08 PM..
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Michigan
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post

Communities that were once majority white, but went to majority black represents two facts. The first fact is that blacks were willing to integrate and live in communities that were predominantly white. I mean…..a community cannot go from nearly all white to nearly all black without blacks demonstrating the willingness and desire to integrate with whites. That is just fact. Secondly, it demonstrates that many whites were not willing to integrate……because they left when black percentages started breaking the psychological threshold of comfort for whites, what seems to be around 20%.....that’s when white flight ramps up or did historically, until it tappers off or is renewed via some gentrification projects that create white enclaves by virtue of class dynamics not allowing the previous black population to afford to live there any longer.

So historically it is clear that blacks desired to integrate…..and demonstrated it, while whites demonstrated the desire not to integrate. Thus, there is no moral equivalence here, between the behaviors. Granted, after being rejected and treated as if you are not wanted for so long, people naturally REACT with pride and start rejecting the people who reject them. All actions produce reactions and a people cannot be treated badly for years, because of their race, and expect that there will not be a negative reaction to it against the group that has degraded their humanity. So a sort of “black pride” developed in reaction to the “black inferiority” treatment coming from the larger society. This black pride manifests in many different ways…….racism, resentment, self segregation….ect. It does not make the reaction right……but very, very predictable if one understands human nature.
While they may have desired to integrate, they also brought the problems and issues from Detroit with them, causing the whites to move out.
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