Is Detroit like Cleveland? (Troy, Royal Oak: house, neighborhoods, theatres)

[burtzfam]

I have lived in both for many years at a time....Cleveland hands down is the nicer of the two...much more compact and as mentioned prior its downtown is just flat out nicer and easier to navigate. This is without mentioning areas like Ohio City, Tremont, Lakewood which are easy to access. Detroit is so spread out...being in my 30'snd married...in Cleveland myself and the wife would frequent downtown often...dinner, drinks, live music(a new house of blues)...you can walk to various downtown places. In Detroit...downtown is flat out depressing.....my wife said last weekend she feels so far removed from the city in Metro Detroit versus our time in Cleveland when the city was so easy to access and explore on so many different levels that Detroit just does not deliver on.

The final word came from many coworkers in Michigan..we took an Cleveland road trip two years ago to see Browns and Lions...these guys were all native Detroiters and loved Cleveland...the rock hall, house of blues, Tremont Area, West 6th street area.

[TheProf]

Not surprised, burtzfam. Frankly, I don't know what these other folks are smoking except, probably, they're just homers... Guess I can't dog someone for protecting the home turf. But reality's reality.

[Jake1256]

detroit is better by far! cleveland is half the size, and not much thibgs to do. detroit is rich in culture, restrants and so on. detroit.

[radkeste]

I'm a native Detroiter. Live in Philly now due to a relocation with work. My company has a regional office in Cleveland and have spent many weekdays and a few weekends there over the past 5 years.

I agree with the Prof that THE single thing holding Detroit back is not having a light rail line. Living in Philly, I find SEPTA to be convenient and a good way to get around the city, go to a restaurant without having to drive, etc. Philly really is like parts of Manhattan, Boston, DC when in Center City.

Detroit needs better public transit. I will say there has been a considerable amount of development in Detroit. Growing up there, it was dead. Now, Detroit is on the rise. Construction cranes, renovations, shops opening up on Woodward. Something special is happening in Detroit right now! Lots of investment and people are rejecting the suburban-car-drive lifestyle that is so heavily entrenched in Detroit.

Detroit has a long way to go to meet Philly, but it can get there. It is encouraging to see some mass transit studies underway in Detroit like along the Woodward corridor. Personally, I am considering a move back to Detroit's Boston-Edison district.

As for Cleveland, what a renaissance. The downtown, the flats, Tremont. The RTA is one line that connects the airport to the city, but whenever I go to Cleveland, I still need a car unlike Philadelphia. Cleveland has done a lot but Detroit has way more potential due to it existing "good ole bones" being a larger city. In 1950, the time by which most of the US grand-magnificant building structures were put in place, Detroit was the 5th biggest city in the US. Ranking was NYC, LA, Chicago, Philly, Detroit.

I believe Detroit is on the rise and will certainly surpass Cleveland as a major redeveloped city, even if it takes another 5-10 years. Prof, you might call me a "homer" for the reason being I grew up in The D. Philly reaches to compare itself with Chicago, a large city. Cleveland reaches to compare to Detroit, another larger city. Detroit stands alone as it is and (for the most part) doesn't compare itself to other places.

Priority #1 for Detroit: Rail or Trolley line along Woodward to Royal Oak.

[TheProf]

Radkeste, you raise some interesting points of which I agree with some and disagree with others... but we can still be agreeable...

Cleveland Transit: it's a lot better than Detroit's, obviously, but nowhere near Philly, which, though old and run down in parts, covers practically the entire metropolitan area with some form of high-speed rail. You can live car free there and depend on transit. The shame is though, the Regional rail, which blankets much of the city and fans deep into the burbs, has too sporadic a service to be relied upon beyond rush hour -- hourly service on most lines.

As for needing a car in Cleveland? Depends on what kind of biz you have and where it takes you. If you're traveling in the burbs a lot, absolutely, you'd need a car in most cases (except in Shaker Heights). But I can't see why you'd need one if, like a lot of biz folks, you are limited to downtown. RTA's rapid train, though small compared to some of the big boys, gets the job done for the most part for a smaller less dense city like Cleveland... And it appears commuter rail is on the way along with Bus Rapid Transit (along Euclid)...

I'd also agree, some nice things are happening in Detroit, esp along the Cass corridor, Woodward lower corridor, esp (somewhat sporadically) btw Campus Martius and the WSU campus... As for Detroit passing Cleveland as a major redeveloped city? Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion.

Again, Detroit has a long, long way to go before that happens. Moreover, you tend to act like Cleveland's is somehow 'finished', just standing pat waiting for Detroit (and others) to surpass it... Hardly. The latest plan has a huge Medical Merchandize Mart, tied in to our world renowned Cleveland medical community (esp well-known Cleveland Clinic) right at Tower City mall – oh yeah, Detroit still doesn’t have a major downtown mall … yet – and will connect, directly, indoors to the RTA rapid transit from the airport and other destinations. And to use the 40s gangster movies lingo: downtown Cleveland is lousy with apartments, condos, restaurants and clubs. Detroit’s getting better, but really its still all about 2-block Greektown (and it’s enclosed casino) or nothing.

In this case, size (which you Detroiters harp on) doesn’t matter, because downtown Cleveland – with its energy, residents, mass transit and retail, just feels bigger than downtown Detroit. We’ve got a ways to go before we reach Philly status (if ever), but we’ve got Detroit’s number. One must remember, also, Philly’s an old colonial city where residents have been living downtown since the beginning, when downtown (or Center City in Philly parlance) was the whole of the entire city. Now over 100,000 people live there which is close to Chicago’s Loop/near North area.

[Jake1256]

Detroit is expanding it's elevated transit. the city is building the new Rosa Parks transit center, which will add new length for the people mover, for buses, and for Taxis. I think the project will cost a billion dollars, but I'm not positive. and the city is making a comeback already, the shops opening up near merchants row. the new hotel renovations, the office buildings coming in, and the possible move of Quicken's HQ.

[CantonzOwn]

I'm going to have to say Cleveland comes out on top because even some of Detroits suburbs seem like lower class housing and it can somtimes be hard to tell the suburbs from the inner city because the neighborhoods look so similar.

[Mr. Midwest]

First of all let me say...Ive never been to Cleveland but I have realitives there and I love your city!! I can relate thru your struggles by Detroit's many struggles....and I love your Key Tower!! One of the most beautiful towers in the world. Anyways...Detroit and Cleveland are alot alike in ways of crime, poverty, and blight. Detroit may be alot bigger than Cleveland but still exhibits these downfalls. Detroit's eastside (which I happened to be born and raised in my whole life) is probally one of the most blighted and crime-ridden communities in the United States of America...right next to East ST. Louis, Gary, Camden and Baghdad ...no really....the eastside of Detroit tells a story if you walk thru it (if you have the balls!!). It tells the story of a people and a urban metropolis that surfered immense pain and relinquish and has become the area it is today. So if Cleveland resembles this same story than Im pretty sure they are pretty much alike.

PS: My areas I grew up in are as follows: Chene/Gratiot Area, Chalmers/Harper Area, Northend, and 8 Mile-9 Mile Ryan/Dequindre Area(where I live today!!)

[radkeste]

The Prof,

You make some great points. I never really took into consideration Cleveland's continued development. My thoughts were focused on the fact the Detroit's potential will allow it to surpass Cleveland as it exists today. I never thought that in 5-10 years Cleveland will also grow making Detroit have to work harder. Cleveland certainly started its renaissance earlier than Detroit and is arguably in better shape than Detroit TODAY. I still think the rate of growth in Detroit is accelarating, mostly because there is so much more to do, and that Cleveland's growth will slow down.

I do take exception to your comments about Greektown being the only developed area of the city. You mention its this 2-block section or nothing. Yes, Greektown is great as both you and I agree, but I honestly haven't been there in years. There are so many other areas like Foxtown (the area all around the Fox-Comerica Park), Mexicantown (area by the ambassador bridge), Corktown, Eastern Market, Hamtramck, the new Riverwalk, Campus Martius, Cass Corridor and the development along Wayne State-DIA-New Center. These areas are all small pockets of life around downtown. They are getting bigger and once connected will make a great liveable downtown, rapid transit would accelarate this growth. When is the last time you visited Detroit?

There is no question that Cleveland is better diversified than Detroit, in terms of jobs and industry. Cleveland and Detroit both have their share of large industrial companies. However, Cleveland was smart enough to diversify into other industries and has done well in financial services and medical services like you mentioned with the Cleveland Clinic. It is a shame Detroit didn't (hasn't yet) diversified into other areas like technology, food, financial, medical, etc... I will note, however, that Detroit is more diversified in the area of entertainment. The musical legacy of Detroit is amazing, starting with Detroit Soul, Motown, Classic Rock, Detroit Techno, and now several current muscial acts like Kid Rock, Eminem, The White Stripes that are all unique and Detroit bred. Cleveland has the Rock n' Roll Hall of Fame, but am not sure why. Somehow, Detroit constantly reinvents itself musically and continues to have an important impact on the US popular music culture. Unfortunately, music doesn't provide jobs for many Detroiters and these acts usually leave the city once they "make it." Along the same lines as entertainment, Detroit also trumps Cleveland in the legacy of its sports teams. All 4 major sports teams are present in the city and all have strong legacies in their respective leagues, even if the Lions are a constant embarassment since the 1950s. Some say the casinos also add to Detroits entertainment value. Personally, I don't visit the Casinos, but other people are not sports fans either and could care less about the great sports legacy in Detroit. Entertainment wise, there is something for everyone in Detroit between music, gaming, sports and museums. Detroit certainly surpasses Cleveland as an entertainment city.

One last thing up Detroit's sleeve is not even part of Detroit. That is the surrounding suburban communities. "Suburban" is a bad word used to describe Detroit's older surrounding communities since they are all pre-war and not what we think of suburbs today. Royal Oak, Dearborn, Birmingham, Northfield and now Ferndale are all great walkable neighborhoods surrounding the city. Ann Arbor is there too, but that's a stretch. Sometimes I consider these the gems of Detroit. In other cities like Philly, Chicago, and Cleveland people usually go downtown. For so long in Detroit, people avoided downtown altogether allowing these communities to really develop. It is unique in any American city to see so many pockets of small towns surrounding the city. These areas are all on their feet and will survive well now that people are starting to rediscover downtown Detroit. Cleveland has no such developments in their surrounding areas that can compare to Royal Oak, Birmingham, Gross Pointe, etc... Strongsville compares more with Detroit's boring suburbs like Troy. (Within the city, Cleveland has Tremont and the area by Case Western, but Detroit has Hamtramck to counter Tremont as an ethnic enclave.) Philadelphia was able to annex Manayunk, Chestnut Hill, Mt. Airy, Germantown and the Northeast into the city and its too bad Detroit didn't have the political will to do the same with its outstanding suburban communities.

Let's not forget Windsor. For a city of only 200,000 there is as much walkable, developed area in Windsor as in Cleveland or Detroit, and with better skyline views than either city. Canada never stuttered like so many American cities in the 1960s-1990s with urban blight due to people leaving the inner city. It is check mark for Detroit to have Windsor. Again, this mostly a point in favor of entertainment value since no one works in Windsor. (Although many people live in Windsor and commute to Detroit.)

Prof, I'm sure you can poke holes all through this post. I've gone beyond comparing just the "downtown" core, but the real size and strength of the 4.5M Detroit metro begins to blow Cleveland away.

Radkeste

[TheProf]

^ radkeste,

I was actually in Detroit last summer and will probably be there in a month or so... I do like the Fox Theatre (and others) stretch of Woodward -- indeed, Woodward from it's base at Hart Plaza all the way up to Warren/WSU is coming along really nicely -- couple really cool restaurants in the area and high-density housing is going in (but much like Beacon Sq in Cleveland along Euclid, those condo near Mack (can't recall the name off hand) are just too suburban-ish and low density for me. Why not more mixed us properties, like the neat new little apartment building at Mack w/ balconies and ground-level retail. Yes, I like Campus Martius with it's summer jazz and movies.

Corktown, though nice looking with some nice housing, has a long way to go before it's the kind of walking/people place I'd go out of my way to visit. Mexicantown is nice at the tight-squeezed restaurants and Vernor Rd is getting somewhat better and has density (but doesn't motivate me to leave the restaurant area, esp at night). And like most areas of Detroit, w/o rapid transit you MUST have your own wheels, which sucks to me. Relying on DOT slow/infrequent buses just won't do for me, anyway. And again, sadly, to reach Mexicantown you must past that sad architectural-gem-turned-frightening-abandoned-monstrosity Michigan Central RR Depot. It’s awful, not to mention vacant Tiger Stadium which, I understand, will be torn down (finally) soon… And Eastern Market? Aside from the special events, there's nothing there to me -- it's highly unattractive and the area around it is bleak. Sorry, I'm just too accustomed to Cleveland’s classic West Side Market in the heart of thriving Ohio City with it's mixed use, high density structures, restaurants (several featuring al fresco dining) and foot traffic).

And lastly, not in Cleveland – not anywhere I’ve been, have I seen the extent of total housing abandonment and open weed fields as there are in Detroit, esp on the East/NE side. It’s stupefying. Cleveland has its struggling areas, to be sure, with some empty lots here and there, but nothing like this – block after block, sometimes miles, of just… nothing.

And then to counter this, you go to these in-city pockets like Palmer Woods/Sherwood Forest where I’ve been to parties. There you’ve got mansions and palatial estates that often match those of Grosse Pointe – easily. And when I go to these lust estates sometimes I feel I want to just wag my finger at these property owners in shame --- it’s almost a crime one should live so well in a city that also contains such extensive and total residential degredation. It’s have-and-have not as exist nowhere I’ve seen in this country and really speaks poorly for that the urban United States should be about. It’s Detroit’s wealthy that can and should be doing all it can to help bring up the horrible areas of Detroit. Some of the BEST urban and suburban living exists in this metro area (even if you have to DRIVE so far to reach it) … it’s just they are so distant and insular.

BTW: of the underrated, high density walking areas, 2 seem often overlooked and underrated: Ferndale and downtown Dearborn (very extensive and nice—caught me off guard when I 1st encountered it). Hamtramck, while OK, just doesn’t measure up, to me; I think it’s overrated by Detroiters imho. And forget Ann Arbor; it’s 45 miles away.

And when it comes to overall size, metro Detroit’s size advantage of roughly 4.5 million to C-town’s 3 million doesn’t deter me. Cleveland’s compact, walkable and mass transit accessibility (for the city and many close-in burbs) actually make it better to be smaller.

… Oh yeah, and for sports teams. I’ll take Cleveland’s sports venues over Detroit’s. They’re in tighter to downtown and all 3 are directly accessible to Cleveland’s rapid transit train station’s (w/ the wintertime Quicken Loans Arena tied into the central Tower City rapid station by a heated, underground passage walkway)…

And as for the success of teams – there’s where you and I will agree. Detroit’s sports success dwarfs Cleveland where no team has won a championship since freakin’ 1964!!!! I doesn’t get worse than that. Detroit’s probably the best sports town in America in terms of fan interest and sophistication.