Why I think Metro Detroit is Great (Ann Arbor, Troy: real estate, attorney)

[Coldjensens]

Originally Posted by mogo

I'm not asking any question in this thread. This is simply something that I wish were pointed out more often.

When my wife and I were looking to flee the area amid the economic crisis, we looked at several cities around the country to move to (DC, Chicago, Phoenix, Denver, Miami, etc.). We kept coming back to one question: if you removed the attraction from these places that would not be part of your daily life (the beach, the mountains), are they better than Metro Detroit.

We always answered "no".

It just seems to me that there is an inordinate amount of attention paid to these places based on the things that you rarely use if you actually live there. Furthermore, all of them are ridiculously expensive compared to Metro Detroit.

If you take these places and strip them down to what they offer residents on a day-to-day basis, I have to believe that Metro Detroit is near the top of the list of great places to live in the US.

You won't find that in any of these BS surveys that Forbes and MSN keep pumping out.

This is very true. We lived in Orange County for almost 20 years. There, you have the ocean beaches, and not far away montains and desert.

The problem was that we could not afford to live at the beach, so we lived about 15 miles away. It would take about an hour to get there and park on nice days. So I went to the beach mayber two or three times a year. My wife and kids went about 8 to 10 times a year. We got up to the mountains once or twice a year. We rarely went out to the desert or to disneyland or sea world or other attracitons unless someone came to visit.

We lived in a 2600 s.f. house on a postage stamp sized lot in a rough city and slaved away to barely be able to pay the morgage and taxes even though my income is probably double that of most households.

Excpet when we went to the beach, we never saw any water that was not coming from a tap. Trees are sparse and forests simply are not at all. Rivers are just dry beds of gravel and sand and "lakes" are man made things the size of a large pond with water that is dyed green.

In Michigan, we live on the water. We see it every day. We canoe or kayak from our front yard. We also live in the woods. Deer graze on our front lawn in the morning, and we only need look out our window rather than sit in traffic and wait in lines at the zoo to see Eagles, hawks, foxes, rabbits, herons, swans geese, ducks, coyotes, horses, and alpacas. It is never too hot to go outside and rarely too cold to go outside. The air and water are clean and plentiful. Land and wildlife, open space, fish, trees, farms etc are abundant and you do not have to wait in line to traffic to see them, or catch them or own them. People are wonderful if a bit uptight and closed, they are less superficial and more warm hearted in a meaningful way.

Not everything is better here and the economy is somewhat worse (although not a lot worse). However the big deal attractions of other places are really not that big of an issue as you said. Uless you are extremely wealthy, you rarely take advantage of them.

[bigwilly]

Here's my take. I lived in metro detroit for 15 years. I moved out to Denver a year ago and there are much bigger differences that just the mountains, which I enjoy every weekend and I love the views, much more inspirational that a drive down 696 or I75. If you want to really enjoy the outdoors in michigan you have to drive 3 hours north, here I can drive 15 minutes and be deep in the mountains and that's just from denver. Weekends here are like vacations. Metro detroit is ungodly depressing, people are actually happier here and it shows in everything, everyday. Cashiers at target are NICE. There are a million more things to do here than sit on your couch or go bowling like the majority of people in metro detroit do. There are even JOBS here. And the cost of living is not much more, well it wasn't before I just lost 50,000 grand on my house in mt. clemens (what a hell hole). I could name a hundred other more positive things that denver has to offer that detroit doesn't. Have you lived anywhere but M.D.?

[zthatzmanz28]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

I really get sick of this type of post. I have been to a lot of major metropolitan areas in the country and I have found depressing geographic areas in most of them, primarily those that have a large population of historically oppressed peoples. Let me be racial here. The life in metro Detroit for whites is on par with the life of whites in most major metropolitan areas, aside from the recent economic downturn exacerbated by the areas Auto Industry. Here is the kicker; the life of blacks in Metropolitan Detroit is not that much off the life of blacks in most major metropolitan areas.

If you analyze the statistics in regards to poverty, crime, employment and the like, blacks in the city of Detroit are not that much different than blacks in the city of Chicago, Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Atlanta and many other cities. In fact, if you take the statistics on those same socioeconomic indicators for whites in Metro Detroit, you will find that they line up very good with whites in most major metropolitan areas, adjusted for cost of living factors, of course. So again, Metropolitan Detroit is not as much an anomaly as people make it out to be.

What makes the Detroit area stand out for criticism and what makes it an anomaly is that it is the only major metropolitan area in which its principle city is so overwhelmingly black. Blacks are a historically oppressed group in America and their socioeconomic indicators are reflective of that. Nationally black poverty is nearly 3 times that of whites and black unemployment is really over twice that of whites (when you factor in discouraged workers….long tern unemployed who don’t get counted as unemployed). In NYC and Milwaukee, it has been reported that the black male unemployment rate is 50%. Now, suppose if Milwaukee or NYC were 90% black? What would that do for the statistics of those cities?

When the principle city of a metropolitan area has a large white population, it offsets or negates the miserable statistics from the African American community for city data. I am African American and when I go to major Metropolitan areas, I have family or friends who live in the inner cities of these places. When a white person from Metro Detroit goes to these cities, I am sure that they are avoiding these areas like H1N1. You don’t know how depressing these areas are because you don’t see them. You visit the white areas of Chicago, Philadelphia, Milwaukee and others. You don’t know how bad they are but you know how bad Detroit is from years of living in the area.

Thus, in conclusion, in my opinion the thing that makes Metro Detroit stand out is racial polarization and really nothing else (ignoring the auto industry dependence). Detroit proper stands out against other major principle cities in America because it’s roughly 90% black. You show me another 90% black principle city in America and I will show you a depressed city, relative to principle cities that much whiter. How about Gary, Indiana? How about East St. Louise, Illinois? Of course, these places are much smaller and hence don’t get the attention that Detroit does. If the City of Detroit annexed part of Oakland county, to the degree that the city then became 50% white, Detroit would drop from the top 10 list of per capita crime rates, its poverty rate would drop, its unemployment rate would drop and it would have statistics as good or better than most major principle cities in America.

Hence, it is IGNORANCE and RACE that perpetuates a negative image for the Detroit areas due to the fact that the principle city normally is the signature for the metropolitan area. That assumes that the principle city is a microcosm of the metropolitan area, which was true 50 years ago, but has become less true each subsequent decade. In the case of the Detroit area, the City and Suburbs are almost complete opposites as one is 90% black and the other is 90% white. Therefore, when people here how bad Detroit and or how it sucks, that negatively taints the suburbs as well, when in fact the Suburbs are on par with any in the nation.

Detroit proper is run down and abandoned looking as a result of the process of becoming a racially polarized region. You don’t go from nearly 2 million residents to less than 900,000 without creating a lot of abandoned and run down dwelling. It’s the simple economic law of supply and demand. For whatever reason, it was whites who created that level of abandonment because the significant degree of difference in those numbers in the city is due to white flight. Detroit is down more than a million from its peak white population, while its black population peaked in 2001 and since has lost about 100,000.

I am sure some will say that I am blaming whites.....but that is the FACTS of what happened. If whites in Metro Detroit wished that their principle city was more vibrant like Chicago, Phily, Boston of the likes, they have no one to blame but themselves. Move to the City of Detroit and create a Gold Coast or NorthSide or move to expensive high rise condiminuums in the city like whites do in those cities. However, don't just sit back and point to how depressed looking a 90% black Detroit is and how it taints the whole region and state. Hell.....blacks in Chicago, Philly and most other cities are NOT doing anything different than are blacks in Detroit, yet, they have large vibrant white communities in these cities. SO really.....THATS THE DIFFERENCE. Therefore, if you are not willing to move to the city and make it like those cities that you think are so great.....then YOU are the problem. Whites did not abandon those cities like they have Detroit. You cannot cut off your nose to spite your face...as my mom says. In othe words, constant critisim of Detroit by people in the suburbs comes back to hurt the whole region.

So...are you saying because there is no measurable "white" population in Detroit the city is in ruins?

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28

So...are you saying because there is no measurable "white" population in Detroit the city is in ruins?

No! Ruins in subjective. Like I said, when I visit major cities in America I visit the heart of the black communities of those cities and relative to those areas Detroit is not in ruins. Furthemore, 700,000 blacks CANNNOT occupy housing stock built for 2 million people and consequently the excess goes into disrepair and decay and creates the "ruins" that people like you talk about. To me I am more worried about the crime, poverty and unemployment rates of blacks in Detroit relative to other principle major cities, which is not really an anomoly. The anomoly is the so called abondonment of housing due to white flight.

[Coldjensens]

Originally Posted by bigwilly

Here's my take. I lived in metro detroit for 15 years. I moved out to Denver a year ago and there are much bigger differences that just the mountains, which I enjoy every weekend and I love the views, much more inspirational that a drive down 696 or I75. If you want to really enjoy the outdoors in michigan you have to drive 3 hours north, here I can drive 15 minutes and be deep in the mountains and that's just from denver. Weekends here are like vacations. Metro detroit is ungodly depressing, people are actually happier here and it shows in everything, everyday. Cashiers at target are NICE. There are a million more things to do here than sit on your couch or go bowling like the majority of people in metro detroit do. There are even JOBS here. And the cost of living is not much more, well it wasn't before I just lost 50,000 grand on my house in mt. clemens (what a hell hole). I could name a hundred other more positive things that denver has to offer that detroit doesn't. Have you lived anywhere but M.D.?

If I want to enjoy the outdoors, I just go out my door. Why drive three hours?

I do like the views of mountains. IN OC they were rare due to smog and haze, but in Denver they are there all the time. What I missed when in Denver was trees and water. However I love the mountains. I miss the mountains in California far more than I miss the beach. Colorado is wonderful and has lots to offer. However everyplace is far more charming for the first five or ten years then it is later. Your speech sounds like mine when I first moved from Mochigan to southern California. However that speech changed over time and eventually we moved back (18 years eventually). Other places always seem better and even magical at first but fade after a long time in many cases.

You must live ont he edge of Denver. When I stayed in Denver for a time, I could not even make it to the freeway in 15 minutes, let alone deep into the mountains. It was usually at least an hour from my door to my detination in the mountains.

The problem is that when you ahve a family, your day is not about mountains, or beaches or deserts. It is about school, soccer, doctors, grandma and grandpa, groceries, work, church, baseball. These things are pretty much the same anywhere. I find that at the outside, I have one day of a weekend "free" every month, or every other month. All too often I have to work a weekend here or there. Other times I have choes to complete. Other times I have kid things to attend, family events, church events, etc. It is just not that often that you really get to spend a day at the beach, or on the trail or in a boat no matter where you live. If you live right at the base of a ski hill, or right on a river (like we do in Michigan) you may get to get out in a kayak or on skis in the evening after work or on a weekend morning before everything gets moving, but we just do nto have that much liesure time in our lives to warrant choosing a place to live by available liesure activites.


However, if you are happier in Denver than in Detroit Merto, stay there and love it. I absolutely loved California for 10 - 15 years. I still liked it when we left and I still like it now, just not as much more than Michigan as when I first left Michigan. Now, given a choice and no family issues, I woudl probably prefer to live here in Michigan than in Southern California, but it is a close call. However the Devener area might be even more appealing than Californi . However Denver als has a lack of woods and water. (there are woods in the mountains and a few streams and lakes, but I really like living right on water, I am not sure that I will ever again not live on water).

I hated Detroit metro when I left, just like you seem to. Hoever after living in and lengthy visits to a load of other places, I realized that it is really a pretty great place. In part it depends on what stage of life you are in and what your values are. Metro Deroit is not the best place for people in their mid to late twenties through maybe even as far as early or middle thirties. Later when quiet clean and calm become more important than exciting, and when you start to miss trees grass and water, the outlook changes.

[zthatzmanz28]

Originally Posted by mogo

No, we're not. And, of course, just as I mention BS surveys from Forbes, I see that Forbes just ranked Metro Detroit as number 12 in its list of the top 40 safest cities in the country.

Congrats everyone.

Metro Detroit is a city?

[danielj72]

Some people in here will always be highly critical of anyone who says something negative about a place like Detroit. They make excuses for why it is the way it is, blame others for its condition. I say Detroit is the way it is because of the people who live there. The values of the community are reflected in its crime rate, and physical condition. Detroit will not change until the people who live there change their attitudes and values. Furthermore, outsiders will continue to make negative judgements about the city because of all the things that happen there. Those of us in the rest of Michigan have a good reason to be angry about Detroit. We pay higher taxes to support that failed city, and we have to live with our states reputation being damaged by this blight on the land. Tell anyone from around America that your from MI, and likely youll be asked how close you are to Detroit and if its "really that bad". This hurts our state as it prevents new investment here and harms tourism. How many people in America think Michigan looks like the movie 8 mile??? How many think Kwame is a typical Michigan citizen??? This weekend most children will be our trick or treating, but in Detroit many will be setting fires. This does not happen in Milwalkee, Atlanta or Chicago, it happens in Detroit. The national media will be waiting for it as ususall, as it will make a great story. Late night comedians love Detroit also, lots of good jokes. I am so glad I live 100 miles out from Detroit, I cant imagine having to deal with it on a daily basis. Actually out here many people call it Detoilet.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by danielj72

Some people in here will always be highly critical of anyone who says something negative about a place like Detroit. They make excuses for why it is the way it is, blame others for its condition. I say Detroit is the way it is because of the people who live there. The values of the community are reflected in its crime rate, and physical condition. Detroit will not change until the people who live there change their attitudes and values. Furthermore, outsiders will continue to make negative judgements about the city because of all the things that happen there. Those of us in the rest of Michigan have a good reason to be angry about Detroit. We pay higher taxes to support that failed city, and we have to live with our states reputation being damaged by this blight on the land. Tell anyone from around America that your from MI, and likely youll be asked how close you are to Detroit and if its "really that bad". This hurts our state as it prevents new investment here and harms tourism. How many people in America think Michigan looks like the movie 8 mile??? How many think Kwame is a typical Michigan citizen??? This weekend most children will be our trick or treating, but in Detroit many will be setting fires. This does not happen in Milwalkee, Atlanta or Chicago, it happens in Detroit. The national media will be waiting for it as ususall, as it will make a great story. Late night comedians love Detroit also, lots of good jokes. I am so glad I live 100 miles out from Detroit, I cant imagine having to deal with it on a daily basis. Actually out here many people call it Detoilet.

Your beef is with the condition of black America…..not the city of Detroit. The reason that I do not respect people like you is that you don’t have the balls to say what you really mean or that you play these mind games with yourself. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that you also likely have a problem with FLINT, BENTON HARBOR and MUSKEGON HEIGHTS Michigan, no doubt. Think of all the places that you would call the arm pit of Michigan and I can guaran-damn-tee you that what they all have in common is a predominant black population. That’s what you mean by “it’s the people who live in the places”. Who you foolin? Do I read minds…..uh….no, but I understand pattern recognition. Name me the predominately white ****holes in Michigan……the nation? None jumps out at you I bet. Now think of all the ****holes cities in America? Get my point? What’s the pattern? Bingo!

Truth cannot be a negative. Truth is righteous. Hence, if one thinks that it is TRUTH that blacks are lazier than whites, more irresponsible than whites, not as intellectually or emotionally capable as whites, etc, they don't see themselves as racist and never will. They simply see themselves as realist or actualist, born from TRUTH. This is why I could say that you are a racist and it would be meaningless to you....because you see black inferiority to whites as the TRUTH and truth cannot be negative.

[mogo]

Indentured, I appreciate your position on the issues you raised, but it really doesn't have anything to do with the original post. It's an interesting discussion, but it would be more relevant to a different thread.

[mogo]

Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28

Metro Detroit is a city?

I know. I realize it's a region, but the information was gathered from Detroit, Livonia and another city not named Detroit. I got a little lazy.