Can someone please tell me... (Detroit, Warren: home, rent, jobs)

[jeffncandace]

We just moved to Metro Detroit last year from southern California. (I guess, because of what the discussion is, and because of where we now live, I should mention that I am white.) Besides the economy, the biggest concern we have is raising our kids in such a racially divisive area. It's sad because both sides-the white suburbs, black Detroit-each have very valid points about what the problems are here and who or what continues to perpitrate it. The finger pointing can go on forever, and goes back for generations. That kind of animocity doesn't go away easily.

I don't worry about what my kids will learn in my home. My kid's only cousin, my niece, is half-black. She is, of course, just another member of our family, loved by all of us and treated no differently. (If anything, we are quick to celebrate her uniqueness.) I know that is what my kids will learn from their family. But...

We live in Royal Oak, 4 miles north of Detroit city limits. I know I wont be able to shield my kids from racism on either side, at least as they get older. I guess I'm just posting that this does concern us. I don't want my kids to learn racist attitudes from other whites, and conversly I don't want them to have run-ins with racist blacks who will leave a "bad taste" in their mouth. Sigh. I guess I just have to instill a strong sense of my beliefs...which is that God created all men (and women) equal. Period.

As for the Racial Divide here in the Metro...may God help us all.

[Cato the Elder]

I agree about the racial issue in Metro Detroit. The issue for me is not so much different ethnic groups amassing in one area - this happens in the most diverse of cities. It's the fact that it's polarized between two groups that make up the large bulk of the population; it's rarely good for conflict to build around two groups that can focus on each other - look at Rwanda. The key is for it to change one neighborhood at a time without too rapid an influx. For better or worse, residents get nervous when their neighborhood gets an influx of a different ethnicity.

Philadelphia, even more than Detroit in some ways, was and can still be in some areas one of the most xenophobic cities around. Center City and University City were the first two areas to geographically expand diversity. As more people moved into the city, places like Queen Village and Bella Vista started experiencing diversity. It's expanding one step at a time and also changing one xenophobic mind at a time.

The downside for Detroit is that I'm not sure if the city will diversify any time soon. Families in general will be hesitant to move into the city with the schools and perception of safety. The good news is that suburban towns like Troy are relatively diverse and Berkley and Royal Oak are diversifying as we speak; it has to start somewhere. Our block is a testament to this with a good number of people from different ethnic and socio-economic backgrounds moving in.

[jeffncandace]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Cato the Elder again. Dang it!

I do see that RO is diversifying. I just moved here and the stats said something like it is 95% white here...not from what I've seen. And guess what everyone? It's not going to crap! It's still nice and safe here! OMG! (This is meant as sarcasm to those who think that diversification equals crime and poverty).

Although our neighborhood seems to be mostly white, I definately see plenty of non-whites as well. And I love it!

[Cato the Elder]

We were at Somerset this weekend shopping for bar stools and we were pleasantly surprised by how ethnically diverse the shoppers were. We could swear it was much more "white-american" during the winter; we both independently noticed the same thing. Perhaps the quality of the mall draws in people from all over? Whatever the reason, all the non-white-americans are coming from somewhere - latinos, asians, euros, australians, etc.

[reconmark]

To jeffncandace and Cato the Elder.
You all have no idea how much hope and optimism your combined posts gives to me and many blacks who visit this forum.
I know of one very intelligent lady who has refused to continue to post on this forum because of the hate and negativity posted.
Be sure that EVERYONE who posts comments on this board knows that BOTH whites and blacks have contributed to this apartied we call se mi.
The problem lies with the belief of some that blacks caused ALL the problems or ALL blacks bring crime and poverty or that it is impossible or impractical that any minority group could live among whites and get along and/or contribute.
On the other side of the fence you have blacks who blame ALL our social and cultural ills on white people and take no personal responsiblity to better themselves or environement. Even some of the situations that have been directly caused by white racism can be overcome and nullified if we choose to look forward and move forward to a higher goal.
The situation in se mi reminds me of the Hatfields and Mccoys, I think that's the correct spelling. You have whites on one side blacks on the other and if anyone from either side attempts positive dialogue or reconcilliation they are attacked from their respective race.
Thanks for interjecting new blood and viewpoints into this issue and please continue to contribute.
I truely believe that with more people such as yourselves this region will turn around as it concearns race relations and hopefully those who shout hatred will die, move away, wake up, or learn to shut up, so that WE as se mi will get together and make this region a great place to live for all of it's people.

[jeffncandace]

You know Cato, something I've noticed on the forums is some suburbanites complaining about the 'burbs declining-getting dirty, more crime, ect. I'm sure they equate this with the influx of non-whites.

To me, as a newcomer, they seem perfectly fine. Although I have heard from word of mouth that some inner ring 'burbs, such as Hazel Park or Oak Park, have indeed declined, in general things look totally fine to me.

Any thoughts? Not just Cato, but anyone?

[jeffncandace]

Originally Posted by reconmark

To jeffncandace and Cato the Elder.
You all have no idea how much hope and optimism your combined posts gives to me and many blacks who visit this forum.
I know all one very intelligent one lady who has refused to continue to post on this forum because of the hate and negativity posted.
Be sure that EVERYONE who posts comments on this board knows that BOTH whites and blacks have contributed to this apartied we call se mi.
The problem lies with the belief of some that blacks caused ALL the problems or ALL blacks bring crime and poverty or that it is impossible or impractical that any minority group could live among whites and get along and/or contribute.
On the other side of the fense you have blacks who blame ALL our social and cultural ills on white people and take no personal responsiblity to better themselves or environement. Even some of the situations that have been directly caused by white racism can be overcome and nullified if we choose to look forward and move forward to a higher goal.
The situation in se mi reminds me of the Hatfields and Mccoys, I think that's the correct spelling. You have whites on one side blacks on the other and if anyone from either side attempts positive dialogue or reconcilliation they are attacked from their respective race.
Thanks for interjecting new blood and viewpoints into this issue and please continue to contribute.
I truely believe that with more people such as yourselves this region will turn around as it concearns race relations and hopefully those who shout hatred will die, move away, wake up, or learn to shut up, so that WE as se mi will get together and make this region a great place to live for all of it's people.

Thank you very much! You're right, it is somewhat like the Hatfields and the McCoys here. Very wierd, to an outsider like myself.

It's a sad commentary on our state of affairs that posters such as yourself, and Cato and I, are the in the minority when it comes to the race issue.

Let's hope we can spread around some rational thinking, and that it catches on!

[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by jeffncandace

You know Cato, something I've noticed on the forums is some suburbanites complaining about the 'burbs declining-getting dirty, more crime, ect. I'm sure they equate this with the influx of non-whites.

To me, as a newcomer, they seem perfectly fine. Although I have heard from word of mouth that some inner ring 'burbs, such as Hazel Park or Oak Park, have indeed declined, in general things look totally fine to me.

Any thoughts? Not just Cato, but anyone?

I would have to agree in large part - 'burbs decling and getting dirtier often means non-whites moving in to some people. I hear fairly bad comments about Troy and Madison Heights because South, Southeast, and East Asians have gravitated to that area. Yet these are hard-working immigrants whose kids get stellar grades and will likely be our kid's physicians in the future. Madison Heights has had some hate crimes that have astounded me - stuff you rarely hear about outside of places like rural Texas.

My in-law's gardener who comes from a long-time, uneducated, insular Big-3 family is fairly racist; perhaps the saddest part is that it's a part of her and she doesn't even realize it. She's generally a very nice person, just very ignorant. I would guess that 90% of the people who spout the most repugnant vitriol on here come from a similar background - venting as their privileged Big-3 way of life comes to a close. Something has to give in this day and age. I think only more non-whites will settle in the 'burbs. Some will be troublemakers as in any demographic, but the vast majority will be productive members of society who will add something good. It's a shame that some people don't realize this in the 21st century. IMHO, it's time to dilute some of the 100 year old MI inbreeding if the state's to move on...

[and the]

They were discussing prostitution at the time. You have to admit most Johns caught in Detroit are not from here, and until very recently neither were the hookers -- the fines in Detroit were low, so they'd come from near and far.

Law enforcement doesn't work very well if you can't even discuss an entire category of crime for fear of being branded racist.

Most johns they catch on 8 MILE are from the suburbs. When you're only looking for them on the border streets, that's where you going to find them. This idea that Detroit's drug and prostitution problem is mostly fed by the suburbs is silly.

And, AFAIK, Detroit residents committing crimes outside Detroit-proper are quite rare. Criminals don't usually rob, rape, or murder outside of their home neighborhoods. They don't know the area, so they don't know where to run if they're interrupted.

Are you kidding me? Do a FOIA request of arrests for UDAA and larceny for any city that borders Detroit. Ask any border city retailer's loss prevention department where the majority of their arrestees live. Don't take my word for it, do the research.

When was the DPD 80% black, as the city has been for almost decades?

New hires were mostly black for years. Take a look at any academy class picture from the 80's to before they lost affirmative action. It was so bad in the 80's that they were recruiting off of STREET CORNERS. There were people in the academy who had active warrants for their arrest. And they weren't the suburban hires either.

You really don't want to fight about the PD's Affirmative Action program. Before it the city was majority black, but almost all the cops were white. No blacks made it past Sergeant.

How many black candidates for promotion outscored their COMPETITION on the written test? It's a civil service job with COMPETETIVE promotions. That is, except for the charter promtion, where the city can promote whomever they want regardless of test scores. Forget the oral interview, how many black candidates were passed over by white candidates who scored lower than them on the test?

I hate to break this to you, but city government is notorious for being bad at paperwork. You have to physically be in the office, several times a week, for months, to get the most basic city paperwork done. When did he apply? The PD has not really been hiring for years.

This was several years ago. The guy now works for NYPD. They hired him with no problem (and they're not under a consent decree either). Based on what my friend at recruiting told me, I'm pretty sure they didn't lose the files of that many white guys.

Our people need the work more than most suburbanites, and can do the job; so the city government does not like hiring non-Detroiters.

Yeah, that's a great way to run a competetive civil service job. Just give the jobs to "our people" because they need the job more. That's why the DPD is operating under a consent decree and has not made even close to 20% of the improvements they need to make.

Not actively recruiting a group is not the same as discriminating against it. If it was every company in the world would be racist against Barack Obama because nobody specifically recruits half-Kenyans.

Is that why, when a company is sued or extorted by Jesse and Al, part of the "settlement" is always that they recruit members from certain racial demographics other than caucasian?

I'm 26, so I've never heard of this incident. I can't find a source for it online, either.

Are you sure it happened that way?

Nick

Yes I'm sure it happened that way. Call Cornelius Pitts and ask him. Or go to the free press archives and search in 1991. I'm not going to buy the articls for you. And it doesn't surprise me that you never heard of the incident. After all, it wasn't Rodney King or anything.

1. FIREWORKS SUSPECTS FACE TRIAL WITNESS' STATEMENT SAYS ATTACKER SPOKE WITH DISDAIN FOR WHITES
July 16, 1991 •• 753 words •• ID: 9101280111
In the moments before the June 28 beatings of two suburban women attending the downtown Detroit fireworks, Tangela McLemore ranted in a Hart Plaza rest room about her dislike for whites, according to court testimony Monday. McLemore then set out into the crowd at the riverfront Freedom Festival show, purposely bumping into whites hoping to provoke them into fights, said one of her companions. "She was calling them whores," Cassandra Rutherford, 17, wrote in a

4. TWINS SPLIT IN PLEAS OVER TAPED BEATINGS
September 6, 1991 •• 377 words •• ID: 9102030496
Twins Cossandra and Cassandra Rutherford went their separate ways in Recorder's Court on Thursday, entering different pleas for their roles in videotaped violence following the International Freedom Festival fireworks. Cossandra Rutherford of Detroit pleaded no contest to charges of assault and robbery in the June 28 incident, and faces up to 15 years in prison. Cassandra Rutherford pleaded not guilty to similar counts. Cassandra Rutherford is the only one of the five

5. 'I THOUGHT IT SHOULD BE SEEN' MAN SAYS HE TAPED BEATINGS AT FIREWORKS TO HELP POLICE
October 14, 1991 •• 1266 words •• ID: 9102080459
The cameraman who filmed the Freedom Festival beating of Joanne Was works for a rock band and was on break from a downtown Detroit bar performance when he stumbled upon the now- infamous gang assault. "I never thought it would be as big as it happened to be," Dan Werner, 28, said of his videotape, which has been shown around the world. "I thought it should be seen. Because it wasn't a movie. It was the real thing. It was a horrible thing for

7. DETROIT POLICE CLOSE BEATING PROBE
October 15, 1991 •• 862 words •• ID: 9102080591
Detroit police on Monday closed their renewed investigation into the Freedom Festival fireworks violence with Chief Stanley Knox saying new witnesses claim that white suburbanite Joanne Was started the brawl in which several black women beat her. But the chief said he's drawing no legal conclusions on 199 pages of material from 26 witnesses submitted to Wayne County Prosecutor John O'Hair. "It is now up to him to decide whether it's soup

12. MAYOR PROBES BEATING HE INTERVIEWS WITNESSES ABOUT VIDEOTAPED INCIDENT
September 25, 1991 •• 764 words •• ID: 9102060013
After personally interviewing employees of a downtown Detroit hotel, Mayor Coleman Young has ordered a new police investigation into a Freedom Festival fireworks beating of a suburban woman. An Omni Hotel employee said workers' accounts of the incident differ with statements made by the victim. The employee asked not to be named. Wayne County Prosecutor John O'Hair was startled. He said Tuesday the only hint he had of a new investigation was a passing comment by

13. VIDEOTAPE-BEATING PLEA IS NO-CONTEST
August 24, 1991 •• 398 words •• ID: 9102010929
In a bid to sidestep a 30-year prison sentence, a 19-year- old woman pleaded no contest Friday in the videotaped beatings at the International Freedom Festival fireworks in June. Tangela McLemore of Detroit accepted a plea agreement offered by the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office. In an earlier hearing, witnesses testified that McLemore was the leader of an assault on at least one of the victims, Joanne Was of Farmington Hills. In addition to robbery and assault, McLemore

14. TEEN GETS JAIL IN VIDEOTAPED BEATINGS JUDGE TELLS DEFENDANT DOWNTOWN VIOLENCE IS NO 'ACCEPTABLE SPORT'
August 22, 1991 •• 515 words •• ID: 9102010645
Recorder's Court Judge Dominick Carnovale spoke of healing rifts and sending a message Wednesday as he sentenced a second defendant for her role in the beatings and robberies in downtown Detroit shortly after June's Freedom Festival fireworks. Carnovale sentenced Laquita Glover, 17, of Detroit to concurrent terms of 1-10 years for one count of assault with the intent of causing great bodily harm and 20 months to 15 years for two counts of unarmed robbery.

[RedWingsFan]

Originally Posted by jeffncandace

To me, as a newcomer, they seem perfectly fine. Although I have heard from word of mouth that some inner ring 'burbs, such as Hazel Park or Oak Park, have indeed declined, in general things look totally fine to me.

They look fine to you because you are a newcomer as you said. You didn't see the "before" to able to compare them to the after or state the places are in now. Furthermore if you are from anywhere around the LA area being from California then I would agree some of those places look a heck of a lot better than many places in LA.

What you all have to keep in mind is that whether or not a place is good or bad, great or a mess is all subjective. We view it from our own eyes and our opinions are influenced by our life experiences up to that point. So while I may look at Roseville and say it's down trodden and know that over the last 30 years it's really went downhill, someone else may look at it (especially that didn't see it before) and say "it's not bad at all."

Just depends on what you are used to, what you have experienced. Personally I wouldn't live anywhere south of around 16 mile road. And I've seen the decline of those suburbs around there. I was born in Detroit, raised in Warren and all my family live in the outer (nicer) suburbs.

If you saw how things were before you would know why so many people think things are bad in certain areas now. Because compared to before they are bad now. You just weren't there to see them or the changes that took place.