Can someone please tell me... (Detroit, Coleman: rent, jobs, high school)

[nickbii]

Originally Posted by and the

Most johns they catch on 8 MILE are from the suburbs. When you're only looking for them on the border streets, that's where you going to find them. This idea that Detroit's drug and prostitution problem is mostly fed by the suburbs is silly.

Do you mean to imply that our criminals are too dumb to sell their products to the 80% of the region that does not live in Detroit-proper? They prefer to sell to Grosse Pointers, because most folks from GP have more spare cash than most folks from the D.

You took one statement, out of context, and intentionally misinterpreted it. I pointed out that, in context, the statement was simply true.

Look, we can act like the region is a bunch of different cities alll we want. We can pretend Dearborn Heights isn't what was left over when Dearborn and Inkster got incorporated, and that the mayor of Grosse Pointe Shores is as important as the mayor of Detroit. That won't make it true.

Originally Posted by and the

New hires were mostly black for years. Take a look at any academy class picture from the 80's to before they lost affirmative action. It was so bad in the 80's that they were recruiting off of STREET CORNERS. There were people in the academy who had active warrants for their arrest. And they weren't the suburban hires either.

In the 80s the city was 60-75% black. A 50% white police force would be 2-3 times the city's white population. I'm having trouble reconciling your demand that Detroit hire 2-3 times it white population for it's police with your complaint that suburban departments get yelled at for having 2-3 times their black population in blue.

You may want to clarify your last few sentences. It sounds like you're equating all blacks with criminals. That just ain't so.

Originally Posted by and the

How many black candidates for promotion outscored their COMPETITION on the written test? It's a civil service job with COMPETETIVE promotions. That is, except for the charter promtion, where the city can promote whomever they want regardless of test scores. Forget the oral interview, how many black candidates were passed over by white candidates who scored lower than them on the test?

So you're not surprised that a) only a handful black guys were smart enough to earn their way onto DPD; and the few that were that smart were too dumb to pass the same tests their white colleagues did?

OK.

Originally Posted by and the

This was several years ago. The guy now works for NYPD. They hired him with no problem (and they're not under a consent decree either). Based on what my friend at recruiting told me, I'm pretty sure they didn't lose the files of that many white guys.

Shocking, the city lost out on a talented officer because they lost the paperwork.

That's sarcasm, BTW.

Originally Posted by and the

Yeah, that's a great way to run a competetive civil service job. Just give the jobs to "our people" because they need the job more. That's why the DPD is operating under a consent decree and has not made even close to 20% of the improvements they need to make.

So the only people who deserve to be Detroit cops are white guys from Troy?

I'm having trouble interpreting what you said any other way.

First you complain that cities get in trouble for only having 3 times their minority population in the police. Then you claim that Detroit should have 3 times our white population on our force, and that our black recruits were criminals. You could tell this simply by looking at police academy photos.

You go on to claim that the white-dominated police force of the 70s, and the even more white-dominated top ranks, were all fairly hired. That no black people were qualified to be anything but Sergeant, and that if only the city would hire guys from outside the city limits many of our problems would be solved.

Originally Posted by and the

Is that why, when a company is sued or extorted by Jesse and Al, part of the "settlement" is always that they recruit members from certain racial demographics other than caucasian?

You know, even without programs aimed at recruiting white guys from the 'burbs, an awful lot of them end up on the force.

You can't say the same for GM's board.

Originally Posted by and the

Yes I'm sure it happened that way. Call Cornelius Pitts and ask him. Or go to the free press archives and search in 1991. I'm not going to buy the articls for you. And it doesn't surprise me that you never heard of the incident. After all, it wasn't Rodney King or anything.

You proved the beating happened. You didn't prove Coleman Young paid for their defense, or involved himself in the case period.

Public defenders don't count, even if paid by the city, because everybody has a Constitutional right to those.

You're right, it was not Rodney King. Nobody died.

Nick

[and the]

In the 80s the city was 60-75% black. A 50% white police force would be 2-3 times the city's white population. I'm having trouble reconciling your demand that Detroit hire 2-3 times it white population for it's police with your complaint that suburban departments get yelled at for having 2-3 times their black population in blue.

You may want to clarify your last few sentences. It sounds like you're equating all blacks with criminals. That just ain't so.

I never said the Detroit PD should hire ANY whites in certain numbers. I'm saying any civil service job should hire people based on a competetive testing process, regardless of race. My last few sentences spoke for themselves. In the 80's, the DPD was so desperate to hire black police officers that they were recruiting off of street corners. Literally. I don't know if they were that desperate because educated or at least qualified black job candidates didn't want to be the police for $21,389.00, but that's what they did.

Do you mean to imply that our criminals are too dumb to sell their products to the 80% of the region that does not live in Detroit-proper? They prefer to sell to Grosse Pointers, because most folks from GP have more spare cash than most folks from the D.

No, I mean to imply that the suburbs contribute to Detroit's crime problem a whole lot less than The Hip Hop Mayor would love for you to believe.

So you're not surprised that a) only a handful black guys were smart enough to earn their way onto DPD; and the few that were that smart were too dumb to pass the same tests their white colleagues did?

OK.

They didn't earn their way onto the job in competition against white candidates. They only competed against their own demographic, Black males/black males. And when it came time for promotion, I saw the lists. A 75% should not be promoted over a 92% in a civil service situation. You haven't seen irony until you see a white guy passed over for promotion by a black guy with a low 70's test when the white guy wrote mid 90's, and then a black guy complains because he was passed over by a female with a lower score than him.

So the only people who deserve to be Detroit cops are white guys from Troy?

I'm having trouble interpreting what you said any other way.

No, the only people who deserve to be Detroit cops are the ones who score high enough on the test. OR, you could get rid of the whole civil service system and hire whomever you want. That would be fine with me. But don't play games and then put up a veneer of competetive civil service legitimacy on the whole process.

First you complain that cities get in trouble for only having 3 times their minority population in the police. Then you claim that Detroit should have 3 times our white population on our force, and that our black recruits were criminals. You could tell this simply by looking at police academy photos.

I'm not aware of anyone complaining about a suburban department having more of one racial demographic on their police department, per capita, than their population. Where did I say that?

You know, even without programs aimed at recruiting white guys from the 'burbs, an awful lot of them end up on the force.

You can't say the same for GM's board.

I didn't know GM's board was covered by civil service rules.

You're right, it was not Rodney King. Nobody died.

What???? Rodney King died?? That's a new one on me. Overdose? Drunken car crash?

You proved the beating happened. You didn't prove Coleman Young paid for their defense, or involved himself in the case period.

Public defenders don't count, even if paid by the city, because everybody has a Constitutional right to those.

Yeah, you're right, the fact that the Mayor himself did his own "investigation" and came up, all by himself, with alleged witnesses, after the police investigation, who said that the white women from the suburbs were the aggressors, against a crowd of young black males and females, in the middle of downtown Detroit, does not suggest that he involved himself in the case in any way.

This was common knowledge. He PAID Cornelius Pitts to reprsent Cosandra and Casandra Rutherford. Cornelius Pitts is NOT a public defender and he does NOT come cheap.

[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by RedWingsFan

Just depends on what you are used to, what you have experienced. Personally I wouldn't live anywhere south of around 16 mile road. And I've seen the decline of those suburbs around there. I was born in Detroit, raised in Warren and all my family live in the outer (nicer) suburbs.

If you saw how things were before you would know why so many people think things are bad in certain areas now. Because compared to before they are bad now. You just weren't there to see them or the changes that took place.

I haven't lived here for years, but I find it hard to believe that all the towns south of 16 Mile were "better" than they are now. Birmingham? Beverly Hills? Franklin? Even Royal Oak and Berkley. As you said, it's all subjective. On the rare occasion that we have to drive to M-59 near Lakeside Mall to get to the Babies R Us up there, we always say how we would shoot ourselves if we had to live in that sprawl of soul-less strip malls and traffic. Different strokes...

[RedWingsFan]

Originally Posted by Cato the Elder

I haven't lived here for years, but I find it hard to believe that all the towns south of 16 Mile were "better" than they are now. Birmingham? Beverly Hills? Franklin? Even Royal Oak and Berkley. As you said, it's all subjective. On the rare occasion that we have to drive to M-59 near Lakeside Mall to get to the Babies R Us up there, we always say how we would shoot ourselves if we had to live in that sprawl of soul-less strip malls and traffic. Different strokes...

Thank goodness for you that sprawl of soul-less strip malls exists, eh? Or you wouldn't have a Babies R Us to go to! When you need good places to shop you jump in the car and head to the suburbs to the north. LOL

[Cato the Elder]

Actually, the only place we shop north of the 16 mile corridor is that Babies R Us, which happens maybe once a month. Oddly, it's the only major chain that isn't in our area. But chains are chains. The idea is that you can shop at the Babies R Us in Springfield, MA or Springfield, IL and it will be identical in experience - nothing to be proud of. When it comes to local shops and restaurants, the area south of 16 Mile has the north beat every day of the year - there's only so many times a person can eat at Panera and Applebee's in a month.

[and the]

If all those suburbanites hadn't fled the city over the past 60 years, you could still be shopping at Hudson's downtown. Or the Avenue of Fashion on Livernois....Wait...you can still shop on the Avenue of Fashion...

[jeffncandace]

Ah, the 16 Mile debate again. If anyone feels the need to respond to that exact topic, please see the 16 Mile thread and spill your guts there.

[BurtsBees]

Originally Posted by jeffncandace

Ah, the 16 Mile debate again. If anyone feels the need to respond to that exact topic, please see the 16 Mile thread and spill your guts there.

I dont believe in the 16 mile debate. Heavily depends on the area. If you're talking Gratiot, etc, then its 14 mile. Groesbeck is 13 mile....etc.

[nickbii]

Originally Posted by and the

I never said the Detroit PD should hire ANY whites in certain numbers. I'm saying any civil service job should hire people based on a competetive testing process, regardless of race. My last few sentences spoke for themselves. In the 80's, the DPD was so desperate to hire black police officers that they were recruiting off of street corners. Literally. I don't know if they were that desperate because educated or at least qualified black job candidates didn't want to be the police for $21,389.00, but that's what they did.

Source?

I'll accept that:
"Take a look at any academy class picture from the 80's to before they lost affirmative action. It was so bad in the 80's that they were recruiting off of STREET CORNERS. There were people in the academy who had active warrants for their arrest. And they weren't the suburban hires either."
was a very, very poor choice of words.

But I'm not going to accept that the only black guys who wanted police jobs in the 80s were retarded ex-cons. You gonna have to do a little better than your say-so on that point.

Originally Posted by and the

No, I mean to imply that the suburbs contribute to Detroit's crime problem a whole lot less than The Hip Hop Mayor would love for you to believe.

I hate to break it to ya, man; but every politician in Michigan blames the rest of the state for every problem. The only places I can think of that has a worse blame-thy-neighbor syndrome are Zimbabwe and Iraq.

Kwame's actually relatively good, because he actually puts some of the responsibility on his constituents. Specifically the "idiots" who do things like shoot up the fireworks.

Originally Posted by and the

They didn't earn their way onto the job in competition against white candidates. They only competed against their own demographic, Black males/black males. And when it came time for promotion, I saw the lists. A 75% should not be promoted over a 92% in a civil service situation. You haven't seen irony until you see a white guy passed over for promotion by a black guy with a low 70's test when the white guy wrote mid 90's, and then a black guy complains because he was passed over by a female with a lower score than him.

I'll tell you what I know for sure. Despite civil service rules, before the Affirmative Action program, almost no blacks were hired by the Police. Those that were hired were never promoted. Period.

Which means a) the tests were rigged; or b) black people are too dumb to be cops. Given that black people are roughly as smart as white people, the Courts concluded a) was probably true. That's why they instituted the AA program.

That means the test scores you cite ain't exactly a non-biased source.

Originally Posted by and the

I'm not aware of anyone complaining about a suburban department having more of one racial demographic on their police department, per capita, than their population. Where did I say that?

Page 3:

"Anyone who says anything objectively negative about Detroit is assumed to be a racist, or at best, a segregationist. And any suburban police department who doesn't hire every black person who applies, even though they have two or three times the percentage of black people on the police department than is reflected in their city's population demographics, is less open to diversity than the City of Detroit, even though they actively resisted hiring suburbanites and whites. "

Originally Posted by and the

I didn't know GM's board was covered by civil service rules.

Civil Service Rules or plain ol moral rules, it's hard to believe the most qualified people have the job when they are all white men.

Originally Posted by and the

Yeah, you're right, the fact that the Mayor himself did his own "investigation" and came up, all by himself, with alleged witnesses, after the police investigation, who said that the white women from the suburbs were the aggressors, against a crowd of young black males and females, in the middle of downtown Detroit, does not suggest that he involved himself in the case in any way.

This was common knowledge. He PAID Cornelius Pitts to reprsent Cosandra and Casandra Rutherford. Cornelius Pitts is NOT a public defender and he does NOT come cheap.

I'm always skeptical of common knowledge. Especially when it doesn't make any online source, reputable or otherwise.

Nick

[RedWingsFan]

Originally Posted by nickbii

I'll tell you what I know for sure. Despite civil service rules, before the Affirmative Action program, almost no blacks were hired by the Police. Those that were hired were never promoted. Period.

And the only thing that Affirmative Action has ever done is give people things that they didn't earn on their own merrit. Instead it gives people (not just blacks, but women, and basically everyone but white males) a boost and requires you to hire them even though they may not be the most qualified candidate for the position. In my opinion it's government descrimination and should be illegal. People should get things they earn or happen to be the most qualified candidate for.