Can someone please tell me... (Detroit, Coleman: job, house, illegal)

[Cato the Elder]

People should get things they earn or happen to be the most qualified candidate for.

Yeah, in a perfect world. But too bad those running the asylum and whatever group they're defined as belonging to at the time have been stacking the deck in their favor for years. Whether you're for it or not, AA is an attempt at balancing an unbalanced deck, not unbalancing a balanced deck as you presume.

[RedWingsFan]

Originally Posted by Cato the Elder

Yeah, in a perfect world. But too bad those running the asylum and whatever group they're defined as belonging to at the time have been stacking the deck in their favor for years. Whether you're for it or not, AA is an attempt at balancing an unbalanced deck, not unbalancing a balanced deck as you presume.

Please, that's nonsense.

If I own a business (or any other business owner for that fact) should be able to hire anybody they want. Period. It's their business and nobody should be able to tell them who they can hire as long as it's an adult and legal to work in the country. Stacking the deck? Let me get my violin. I'm from the camp that believes that if you really want to succeed in life you will. You make your own way and create your own successes. Too many people look for a handout (like AA) to help them get ahead instead of doing so from their own hard work.

AA is fuel for racism. And that's the bottom line. If people want racism to go away then there needs to be no special treatment like that. It just stirs the pot and fuels the fire of racism.

[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by RedWingsFan

Please, that's nonsense.

If I own a business (or any other business owner for that fact) should be able to hire anybody they want. Period. It's their business and nobody should be able to tell them who they can hire as long as it's an adult and legal to work in the country. Stacking the deck? Let me get my violin. I'm from the camp that believes that if you really want to succeed in life you will. You make your own way and create your own successes. Too many people look for a handout (like AA) to help them get ahead instead of doing so from their own hard work.

AA is fuel for racism. And that's the bottom line. If people want racism to go away then there needs to be no special treatment like that. It just stirs the pot and fuels the fire of racism.

Give me a freakin' break. Of course you want the status quo - because of your white face, you have an inherent advantage irrespective of your abilities whether you care to admit it or not. The vast majority aren't looking for a handout or a chance to reck a small business as you ignorantly presume - just an equal chance. AA is an imperfect ATTEMPT at this, regardless of its success. You honestly believe that Ivy League schools until very recently were 95% WASP because they were the most qualified students and others were looking for a handout? You honestly believe that pro sports coaches are dominated by whites despite the athletes being dominated by blacks b/c they are inherently better coaches? Continue to live your racist fantasies...

[reconmark]

There once were two boys equal in every way, physically, mentally, intellectually, etc. The only difference was that one was white and the other black. When they were five years old they ran a fifty yard dash against one another, the race was tied so they ran again and the race was tied again.
They were seperated and one boy was given a stride coach,a nutritionist, a physical therapist, everything he needed to become a better runner. The other boy received a pair of cast off shoes, no coach, no nutritionist, and only his determination to run faster.
thirteen years later the same boys meet to race the fifty yard dash, the one boy continually wins the race due to his suppoprt system.
The other boy is told sorry the race was fair you both had to run the same fifty yards, everything was equal.
I use the race as an analogy to a society that engineers an unequal educational system and social system then tells those who receive less that the system is totally fair, color blind, and non descriminatory and if they don't win the race it's only because they don't put in enough effort, are inferior, or simply incompetent to perform at that given level.
Minorities in this country have NEVER had equal opportunity, equal access, equal treatment under the law or any other priveledge that many whites are inately bestowed simply because the color of their skin.
Many complain about fifty or so years of AA but say nothing of two hundred years of white priveldge and social apartied.
We got the "hand outs" prior tp AA and that amounted to nothing, no hope,no respect and no opportunities.
To those who claim that all is overcome by hard work, that may be true if you are a member of the right club and minorities are still largely waiting for membership.

[and the]

But I'm not going to accept that the only black guys who wanted police jobs in the 80s were retarded ex-cons. You gonna have to do a little better than your say-so on that point.

I didn't say that at all. I said (in part) and implied (in part) they were recruiting on street corners because they couldn't get enough black candidates who could pass the drug test, background investigation, written test and oral boards as compared to white candidates. In other words, they were desperate to find enough black candidates. Half of one academy class I know of hired in 1985 was fired or in prison before 1995. It's well known in the Detroit PD that the classes in the 80's had a disproportionate number of criminals and screw-ups. It wasn't hard to believe that it was due to the "relaxed" hiring practices.

I'll tell you what I know for sure. Despite civil service rules, before the Affirmative Action program, almost no blacks were hired by the Police. Those that were hired were never promoted. Period.

So what would you call Detroit after Coleman Young? Revenge? Makes no difference to me, I don't live there.

Which means a) the tests were rigged; or b) black people are too dumb to be cops. Given that black people are roughly as smart as white people, the Courts concluded a) was probably true. That's why they instituted the AA program.

I never said they were too dumb, but I have no problem at all saying a bunch of them were too uneducated to compete with candidates who weren't hamstrung by the Detroit Public School system. I know of cops who were functionally illiterate in the academy. They weren't the guys who went to school in the suburbs. It's helpful to be able to write a police report. Where did you go to school? Renaissance? Cass? I bet you didn't go to Mumford....

That means the test scores you cite ain't exactly a non-biased source.

That's not a reasonable assumption at ALL. The written tests were pretty much reading comprehension. You study these books and answer questions based on what you read. We speak and write American English in the country. Would you prefer the tests were given in Ebonics? How would that look in court?

Civil Service Rules or plain ol moral rules, it's hard to believe the most qualified people have the job when they are all white men.

Here's the ironic thing. Back in the 1920's, prior to the police reform movement, you had to know someone to get a police job. Typically, this meant the ward bosses, aldermen or councilmen. The Polish had their ward boss, the Irish theirs, the Italians theirs, etc.....You would go to your ward boss, pay him some cash and get a police job.

Naturally, at that time, blacks didn't have the established political machines in place in most large urban areas. So.........civil service came along, whereby everyone would have to take the same test. No more bribes to ward bosses to get a civil service job. The civil service system was established to make hiring more fair. But that wasn't good enough. So if you can't compete on a test, we'll just disregard the test.

I'm always skeptical of common knowledge. Especially when it doesn't make any online source, reputable or otherwise.

I really don't care whether you believe me or not. First you said you didn't believe it happened because I didn't give you a source. I posted all those articles and now you say you don't believe me because I didn't give you a source that said "C.A.Y. paid Cornelius Pitts to represent the perpetrators in the Freedom Fest Robbery and Beatings". Did you pay for all those articles to read the whole thing? One of them may very well say that Coleman paid for their defense. It wasn't a secret, but I'm not going to go any farther out of my way to prove it to you because I KNOW what happened, and I don't really have a need to prove to you what happened. If it's not important enough to you to do your own research, it's certainly not important enough to me to hand it to you.

[RedWingsFan]

Originally Posted by reconmark

There once were two boys equal in every way, physically, mentally, intellectually, etc. The only difference was that one was white and the other black. When they were five years old they ran a fifty yard dash against one another, the race was tied so they ran again and the race was tied again.
They were seperated and one boy was given a stride coach,a nutritionist, a physical therapist, everything he needed to become a better runner. The other boy received a pair of cast off shoes, no coach, no nutritionist, and only his determination to run faster.
thirteen years later the same boys meet to race the fifty yard dash, the one boy continually wins the race due to his suppoprt system.
The other boy is told sorry the race was fair you both had to run the same fifty yards, everything was equal.
.

I'm confused.
When I read this I see the black kid as getting the coach, nutritionist, etc. simply because he's a black athlete. In my eyes black athletes are the ones that are catered too, certainly not the white ones. So I think your analogy misses with me.

Black people are not victims. They do have the same opportunities as white people, most of the time they choose to not take them. In the black community it's looked down upon to be smart, do well in school or do well in life. If a black person does well then their fellow blacks down them and call them names. There is peer pressure within the black community to not do well, to not succeed in life.

I suppose with attitudes like yours you would also find some way to blame white people for the the 70 percent born out of wedlock birthrate in the black community as well, right?

I would have to agree with a lot what Bill Cosby has to say on this issue. Read his speech transcript right here:
Bill Cosby Speech Transcript

If more black people thought like him there wouldn't be race relation problems in this country!

[reconmark]

Originally Posted by RedWingsFan

I'm confused.
When I read this I see the black kid as getting the coach, nutritionist, etc. simply because he's a black athlete. In my eyes black athletes are the ones that are catered too, certainly not the white ones. So I think your analogy misses with me.

Black people are not victims. They do have the same opportunities as white people, most of the time they choose to not take them. In the black community it's looked down upon to be smart, do well in school or do well in life. If a black person does well then their fellow blacks down them and call them names. There is peer pressure within the black community to not do well, to not succeed in life.

I suppose with attitudes like yours you would also find some way to blame white people for the the 70 percent born out of wedlock birthrate in the black community as well, right?

I would have to agree with a lot what Bill Cosby has to say on this issue. Read his speech transcript right here:
Bill Cosby Speech Transcript

If more black people thought like him there wouldn't be race relation problems in this country!

I can't figure out...deleted, personal insult
On one hand you state that if more people thought like Bill Cosby there wouldn't be a race problem, then on the other hand you state that irregardless of a black persons morals, character, intellect, etc they would not be welcomed to live next door to you, you are so convoluted in the mind with your bigotry that you contradict even yourself.
I also agree with Bill Cosby and I believe that he's addressing blacks that don't take advantage of opportunities that are available to them for self improvement, however I don't think even Bill Cosby realizes there still exist some fools who spout the ignorance on this board.
If he read some of your posts he would also have a speech to whites about living under the illusion that their hands are clean in this mess of race and to get over themselves believing only they are moral people.
Another thing stop being so stupid spouting the blacks look down on other blacks crap concearning education, of course this happens in SOME segments of the community but people like you attempt to say that ALL black people look down on education, ALL black people face peer pressure not to be smart.
You use this to try to justify your warped view of reality.
I'll make it simple since SOME people can't comprehend the analogy I made earlier.
In this country there are two distinct and unequal educational systems, from kindergarden to high school white and/or more affluent districts students are provided to best tools for success in education therefore preparing them for admissions test, SAT, CAT, GRE and every other test for college entrance.
Compare this to the resources of poorer districts and even the blind can see the results in the gap between rich and poor, white and black.
Of course you'll deny this and claim everything is fair, equal, and colorblind.
Do you also believe the stories told by white slave owners that their slaves were so happy on the plantation that they wouldn't dare run away and if they did it was because some bad ole abolitionist stirred them up.
I've asked the question before but you never answered it so I'll ask again, is it true or not true that you have given and/or directed certain posters on this board to white supremacy sites. Was this done to stir up more hate?
Again...deleted, personal insult. Which one?

[jeffncandace]

Let's keep it above the belt guys. No name calling please.

The original topic was about race, so this is fine so far IMO, but let's watch it.

[reconmark]

Apologies to all concearned.

[RedWingsFan]

Actually I think I've made my points. I'm going to step out of the conversation now. I've gotten in these discussions before on this site and even though people say they want to have them it has in the past lead to me being suspended twice for sharing my views. So I'll just leave it as is and move on. Until the day comes that we can ever all discuss race without people getting mad and name calling and getting people suspended from the forum there will continue to be problems. How can you get rid of something you can't even feel comfortable talking about? In closing I'd like to say that I do believe that racism is taught. No doubt. It's been taught in my family for generations, but I've yet to have someone convince me that the other way is the better way. So until that day comes.... :-)