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Remind me not to live next door to the guy who says this:
But he does have a point.
I personally wouldn't feel comfortable knowing my township's fire department doesn't have enough TRAINED personnel to assist me in case of a fire, which is the exact reason people are supposedly "fleeing" Detroit proper, yes?
There's only so much average joe the neighbor can do.
My comments in purple. (I'm getting tired of red & blue.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 313Weather
The fact of the matter is everyone in Metro Detroit is on a race to the bottom. Sure, some are getting there faster than others, but eventally if we don't change the status quo well all be there. People in this region simply have a very low bar set for satisfaction. What we consider "sustainable" or "a good quality of life" is considered backward in any other part of the contry. Hell, even the far right conservatives in Grand Rapids knows they need their city center in order for whatever metro area they have to survove, which is why leaders n that areas are investing in urban projects within the urban core and not sprawled about outside of it. Even they hate Detroit (and by Detroit, I mean the entire region).
I regret to inform you that many of us out in the suburbs are quite content with where we live. I don't have any need for a "city center". In fact, I believe city centers to be undesirable because they cause unnecessary congestion. At one time (before telephones, computers, e-mail, fax, teleconferencing, FedEx, etc.), they made a lot of sense. Not anymore.
However, there has to be a point where the people of Michigan (and especially Metro Detroit) realize it's something wrong with them when they're the only state in the entire union to report a population decline in the latest census and their biggest city lost between 100K and 200K people. This is due more to the fact that manufacturing is declining due to unfair trade practices and the fact that Detroit is a manufacturing city. Most migration is to the south for warmer weather and to cities that have more diversified commercial enterprises (retail, banking, insurance, medical, etc., i.e. non-manufacturing) Michiganders and Metro Detroiers msut also realize they're doing something wrong when we're the only region in the country experiencing a significant brain drain to cities with STRONG urban cores (Chicago, Minneapolis, Atlanta, etc.) where the citizens don't get up and run to 23 mile and instead remian in the city and fight the good battle. First of all, Chicago does extend out 23 miles and Minneapolis and Atlanta are able to grow in all directions (as opposed to Detroit which can only grow to the north and west due to the river). Second, many people do leave those other cities. Third, those cities didn't have the same development that is peculiar to Detroit (large industrial factories, one industry, rapid immigration during WWII which causes social conflict, car culture promoted by proximity to the Big3, etc.) There has to be a point where the people of Michigan and Metro Detroit have to realize something is wrong with them when the county that praises urban sprawl and can't get enough of it couldn't even afford to plow all of their roads because of too much road infrastrcture yet not enoguh tax revenue. Every city in America is cutting back on service (only some don't have snow to plow). There has to be a point where Michiganders and Metro Detroiters realize something is wrong with them when the only major american city in the country that think sustainability means driving a car everywhere ...and the only city in the country that is the home to all 3 American car manufacturers... and not investing in a rapid mass transit system ...for a declining population and a largely abandoned city (caused by reasons other than lack of mass transit?... (or hell, even combining two poorly operating bus systems to reduce expenses). The people of Michigan and Metro Detroit must realize something is wrong with them when out of their supposedly wealthier suburbs is closing their library...libraries are becoming extinct with the internet and portable e-book readers, and most people in wealthy suburbs can afford these alternate sources of info.
The point I'm trying to make is the people in this reigon and state need to change their way of thinking if they expect to compete in a 21st century world. True. We can not let imports to be dumped in our country when the companies that manufacture those imports are exempt from following our laws (labor, environmental, safety, tax, etc.) Arguing about the repair of a convention center or a water system would never be a problem in any other american city. Politics in other cities is just as bad. In fact, having 180 commmunities in a region (half of which are redundant) would be considered pointless in anyother american city...most other cities compare equally with number of communities..., in fact many growing cities (Jacksonville, Indianapolis, etc.) ANNEXED their metropolitan area into one big city...in fact, these are rare exceptions. It may be true that one big municipality is better (I believe it to be so and in the case of Detroit would have prevented the failures of black self-governance), but based on the number of other cities that don't fit this rare model and have survived better than Detroit, I'm not sure it would have made a significant difference. I think metro Detroit's problems are more economic than political.
Detroit Michigan has its share of problems. I do believe that Detroit can straighten up. Detroit may be predominantly black, but look at other northern cities. Chicago is bad, but can do better. Philadelphia is bad, but it has its own share of problems. So yes, yes, and again, yes, Detroit can improve. I have much faith in Detroit. (Detroit-*2004)
In fact, having 180 commmunities in a region (half of which are redundant) would be considered pointless in anyother american city, in fact many growing cities (Jacksonville, Indianapolis, etc.) ANNEXED their metropolitan area into one big city.
Re-reading this thread, I forgot to make another point about annexation. Jacksonville and Indy-No-Place did their annexation a long time ago and the political climates were likely a bit more forgiving. Detroit should have annexed a lot more than they did, but they couldn't do this even fifty years ago...Redford became a "Charter Township" which cannot be annexed. Harper Woods became a city in 1951, I believe, for several reasons, one of which was the fear of annexation. (Notice the fear of annexation even at Detroit's peak.) The only reason Los Angeles is so large, geographically speaking, is because they used their water supply as an enticement. (Nowadays, there is a strong sentiment in the San Fernando supporting secession from Los Angeles city.)
Going back to Indy, they got the lion's share of Marion County, but not all of it, there are several smaller areas they didn't get. Indy also has suburbs outside of the city limits, even though it's considered a city without suburbs. There's a lot of suburbia just outside Marion County, so Indy isn't benefiting nearly as much as they used to benefit.
I usually think it is silly to ask for sources, but here your understanding of reality is really differetn than mine. Could you post the basis of some of these factual assertions?
Most migration is to the south for warmer weather and to cities that have more diversified commercial enterprises (retail, banking, insurance, medical, etc., i.e. non-manufacturing)
Actually, the migration is all over the place. Take a look at the map that was posted a while back where you can see where people are moving to and from. Michiganders are going all over. Most are looking for work. Many are not looking for diversified commercial enterprises and do not even know waht that is. Many are auto workers who go to the right to work states to get jobs as auto workers. However lots of others are going to New England, Pheonix, Nevada and the West Coast (including many places with worse unemployment than we have)
First of all, Chicago does extend out 23 miles and Minneapolis and Atlanta are able to grow in all directions (as opposed to Detroit which can only grow to the north and west due to the river).
Ever been to Chicago? They have a little puddle which prevents growth in a specific direction as well. I guess you can consider Downriver to be to the West of Detroit, although at some point it becomes south. However a lack of available real estate is not one of Detroit's problems. Detroit has plenty of room for growth. In fact, right now, one of the biggest problems is too much real estate. The City has more room for growth than it needs and it cannot take care of it all.
Second, many people do leave those other cities. Third, those cities didn't have the same development that is peculiar to Detroit (large industrial factories, one industry, rapid immigration during WWII which causes social conflict, car culture promoted by proximity to the Big3, etc.) TAside from the car cultue, none of these points are correct to the best of my knowlege. Chicago is certinaly built around large industrial factories, had rapid immigration.
...libraries are becoming extinct with the internet and portable e-book readers, and most people in wealthy suburbs can afford these alternate sources of info.
Odd. My wife, and assistant librarian in the suburbs says that library use is up considerably. Perhaps you have a better source of information or she is just crazy. Troy closed their library but that was not from lack of use, but from lack of money. I will agree that many libraries are very badly managed and cannot survive government cutbacks.
True. We can not let imports to be dumped in our country when the companies that manufacture those imports are exempt from following our laws (labor, environmental, safety, tax, etc.)
How do we stop them? Take over their countries and enforce our laws on them? Stop trading? After I am dead, give that a try and see what happen.
Politics in other cities is just as bad.
Other than Washington DC what other City has anything to compare to Kwame Kilpatric and our insane City council in recent times? I would agree that other States have government that is just as bad as ours, and in many cases worse - particularly California.
failures of black self-governance
Better that I do not even comment on this one. Res ipsa loquitur.
Coldjensens, thank you for disagreeing with me (I'm getting kind of bored at the moment), but to be honest, your arguments are quite lame.
I realize that people are emigrating all over. However, other than our neighboring states, the next highest states for Michigan emigrants are warm states like Florida, Texas, Arizona, California. It's kind of hard to be wrong saying that people are moving to warmer states since other than a few, they are all warmer. Also most cities have more diverse economies than Detroit, so can't go wrong there. (Notice how I usually only have to state the obvious?)
I'm aware of the puddle, and that is why Chicago's population growth is lopsided like Detroit. A city that can grow equally in all directions will not grow from it's epicenter as rapidly as one that is blocked off in some direction(s) due to water/mountains/borders/etc. Please don't ask for the Calculus equation to prove this - it's been a long time since college!
Chicago has more diverse commercial activity as opposed to Detroit which is centered around one primary industry. Don't know what more I can say about this. Maybe you can look up how many multi-national corporations are based in each city.
Obviously your wife is crazy. Look who she married! I was just pointing out that the residents of Troy are not going to become illiterate because the library is closing. There are other sources of reading material. A lot of library use is for people to use free (i.e. taxpayer funded) internet, to read magazines, to sit at one of the tables and do their homework, etc.
We can stop import dumping with a tax on imports (tariff). I know, not a popular idea. Apparently it is un-American to even suggest it. (even though it was used extensively by the US during our rise to economic supremacy).
True, Kwame was a hard act to beat, but issues like " repair of a convention center or a water system", are just as contentious in other cities. You'll have to read a lot of newspapers from other cities to believe me on this. I don't have time to rummage for them.
A city that can grow equally in all directions will not grow from it's epicenter as rapidly as one that is blocked off in some direction(s) due to water/mountains/borders/etc. Please don't ask for the Calculus equation to prove this - it's been a long time since college!
AH HAA. I understand this demonstrates why New York failed to grow. Or Hongkong, or San Diego. Detroit was certinaly stunted in its growth. THa tis why it became the 4th largest city in the US. Sorry the argument just does not make sense. Calculus does not govern the growth of a City. In fact many Cities, possibly most, grow lopsided, not equally.
I was just pointing out that the residents of Troy are not going to become illiterate because the library is closing.
No. you actually said that libraires are a thing of the past and are dying out.
...libraries are becoming extinct with the internet and portable e-book readers, and most people in wealthy suburbs can afford these alternate sources of info.
We can stop import dumping with a tax on imports (tariff). I know, not a popular idea. Apparently it is un-American to even suggest it. (even though it was used extensively by the US during our rise to economic supremacy).
It is my understanding that the arriff approach was dumped because it ws not working. It just created tarriff wars and inflation. But I am no economist. I do not find that kind of thing very interesting.
True, Kwame was a hard act to beat, but issues like " repair of a convention center or a water system", are just as contentious in other cities. You'll have to read a lot of newspapers from other cities to believe me on this. I don't have time to rummage for them.
haud magis can inquam
Interesting discussion tactic. Make things up and then when you get called on it - chang ethe subject and pretend that you did nto state unsupportable facts. You must be a politician.
Folks moved to Detroit for relatively high paying manufacturing jobs as opposed to agricultural ones. Ya really can't make a buck on the farm unless ya own it.
What enticed Detroiters to leave?
High paying jobs.
Folks moved out of the inner city to merely have their slice of American pie. Hey, we can move north, west or south and actually have 2 cars, a big yard, and a hefty boat payment.
I think the last of 'em split after the summer of '67......
What's enticing Michiganders to leave the state?
Jobs.
I'll be the first to admit that escaping the cold weather was a big 'un for me. Why wait 'til retirement, ya know?
But I would have never left if it wasn't for a good job.
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Also most cities have more diverse economies than Detroit, so can't go wrong there. (Notice how I usually only have to state the obvious?
I was just pointing out that the residents of Troy are not going to become illiterate because the library is closing. There are other sources of reading material. A lot of library use is for people to use free (i.e. taxpayer funded) internet, to read magazines, to sit at one of the tables and do their homework, etc. 
