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It has been pointed out to you before that the ADA no longer recommends a specific diet. Repeating your claim that it does, even when you have been shown that it does not, just demonstrates your irrational dislike of the ADA.
You are correct but they did for many years and everybody that used their recommendations didn't get the memo. They still use those guidelines. That is part of the problem just like with other widely accepted guidelines on diet like cholesterol and eggs.
By the way, there are still traces of what the ADA used to recommend on their websites. The 45 to 60 grams per meal of carbs is still there. That is an insane number of carbs for a full diabetic. At that level you will never be able to reduce medications or insulin and the disease (or condition) will progress till you die or have major health complications. About Our Meal Plans - Recipes for Healthy Living by the American Diabetes Association® All About Carbohydrate Counting
They left some traces behind as you can see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
In regard to whole grains spiking blood sugar like crazy, that is not universally true. It's not even universally true for white bread.
There is no conspiracy for the ADA to make recommendations that will increase medication use for diabetes.
You are correct, whole grains and white bread do not spike blood sugar for NON-DIABETICS. For diabetics they BOTH spike blood sugar.
Glycemix Index for white bread is 73, table sugar is 100
Whole Wheat bread is between 51 and 71 depending on the brand.
Diabetes is an auto-immune disorder? Could you elaborate on that a little?
This is very wordy but seems to conclude that type II could be an auto-immune disorder for some, but the jury, as they say, is still out.
"Fundamentally, available evidence is insufficient to support or dismiss the classification of metabolic syndrome and type 2 diabetes as typical autoimmune diseases.
... On the other hand, the presence of distinct autoantibodies linked to the insulin-resistant or type 2 diabetes state suggests that there is a defined autoimmune component to these diseases. Future studies will be required to assess whether such findings are secondary effects of the disease or whether such autoimmunity represents a true driving pathology, as seen in classical autoimmune diseases."
You are correct but they did for many years and everybody that used their recommendations didn't get the memo. They still use those guidelines. That is part of the problem just like with other widely accepted guidelines on diet like cholesterol and eggs.
By the way, there are still traces of what the ADA used to recommend on their websites. The 45 to 60 grams per meal of carbs is still there. That is an insane number of carbs for a full diabetic. At that level you will never be able to reduce medications or insulin and the disease (or condition) will progress till you die or have major health complications. About Our Meal Plans - Recipes for Healthy Living by the American Diabetes Association® All About Carbohydrate Counting
They left some traces behind as you can see.
The ADA lives in the real world, not Nirvana. The problem with very low carb diets is that two thirds of people who start them do not stay on them. My brother did the Atkins diet for a while to lose weight. The family was at a restaurant to celebrate a birthday. He looked at the table next to ours, leaned over to me, and said, "I could kill that guy for his bread."
Someone posted in another thread a diet that excludes tomatoes. Sorry, giving up tomatoes would not work for me, especially when the goal appears to be avoiding medication rather than controlling the diabetes. Insisting that every diabetic go on a very low carb diet is setting the majority up for failure.
From your first link:
"We also provide tips on how to adjust each meal plan to make it lower in carbohydrates."
From the second link:
"How many grams of carbohydrate are best for me?
The recommended number of servings is based on your weight, activity level, diabetes medicines, and goals for your blood glucose levels."
Not all diabetics are equal. The implication that using medication will inevitably reduce lifespan is false. There is evidence, for example, that diabetics on metformin can have the same life expectancy as non-diabetics. There are even studies in progress on metformin and anti-aging possibilities in non-diabetics.
There is an interesting comment from an insurance agent about life insurance underwriting for people on metformin:
"Five years ago someone taking Metformin was deemed a much higher risk and had to pay a lot more for life insurance. Over the past few years as these studies have come out the rates have gotten much better to the point where some can even get a preferred rate. Will be interesting to see more studies on Metformin in the future."
Quote:
You are correct, whole grains and white bread do not spike blood sugar for NON-DIABETICS. For diabetics they BOTH spike blood sugar.
Glycemix Index for white bread is 73, table sugar is 100
Whole Wheat bread is between 51 and 71 depending on the brand.
The point of the article that I posted is that not everyone responds in the same way to a given food. If we could predict what an individual's blood sugar would be after a meal of a given composition, no one would need to use a glucose meter. What every diabetic needs to do is monitor his blood sugar and find out what foods he personally needs to avoid.
Do you have any evidence that the sponsors dictate anything the ADA recommends? If not, positing a conspiracy is a bit dishonest, don't you think? Metformin is so cheap Publix Pharmacy gives it away.
From your last link:
"Myth: People with diabetes can't eat sweets or chocolate.
Fact: If eaten as part of a healthy meal plan, or combined with exercise, sweets and desserts can be eaten by people with diabetes. They are no more "off limits" to people with diabetes than they are to people without diabetes. The key to sweets is to have a very small portion and save them for special occasions so you focus your meal on more healthful foods."
It's a bit dishonest to imply that the ADA does not advise any limits on sweets, don't you think?
The ADA lives in the real world, not Nirvana. The problem with very low carb diets is that two thirds of people who start them do not stay on them. My brother did the Atkins diet for a while to lose weight. The family was at a restaurant to celebrate a birthday. He looked at the table next to ours, leaned over to me, and said, "I could kill that guy for his bread."
Someone posted in another thread a diet that excludes tomatoes. Sorry, giving up tomatoes would not work for me, especially when the goal appears to be avoiding medication rather than controlling the diabetes. Insisting that every diabetic go on a very low carb diet is setting the majority up for failure.
Your brother was on Adkins to lose weight, not to control his potentially life threatening disease. Some diabetics even after getting limbs amputated do not change their ways, so there is all kinds of people with different levels of will power. You argument is irrelevant. I still have my legs and feet and chose to control my condition with diet. Medication alone will not do it. That was my decision. The alternative was unthinkable for me. I eat tomatoes, onions, fruit and many other foods that do have carbs. I know I can eat them because of my meter. My goal is not weight loss but blood sugar control. If I chose to control with diet alone I would be a lot more strict with myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
From your first link:
"We also provide tips on how to adjust each meal plan to make it lower in carbohydrates."
From the second link:
"How many grams of carbohydrate are best for me?
The recommended number of servings is based on your weight, activity level, diabetes medicines, and goals for your blood glucose levels."
Of course everybody is different. You have to take it upon yourself to adjust your lifestyle to your condition. NOBODY else will do it for you. This is common sense and goes without saying. My post was to contradict yours that the ADA no longer gave specific dietary advice. I showed you that they still did. Both of the links STILL mention 45 to 60 grams of carbs per meal as a general guideline. The web pages are still on the internet. You can nitpick the information to your liking but the proof is in the pudding. I also agreed with you that in general they are no longer giving out dietary advice BUT a lot of people including "experts" are still giving out the old information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Not all diabetics are equal. The implication that using medication will inevitably reduce lifespan is false. There is evidence, for example, that diabetics on metformin can have the same life expectancy as non-diabetics. There are even studies in progress on metformin and anti-aging possibilities in non-diabetics.
There is an interesting comment from an insurance agent about life insurance underwriting for people on metformin:
"Five years ago someone taking Metformin was deemed a much higher risk and had to pay a lot more for life insurance. Over the past few years as these studies have come out the rates have gotten much better to the point where some can even get a preferred rate. Will be interesting to see more studies on Metformin in the future."
I never said a word about Metformin or lifespan or anything of the kind. In fact Metformin is probably the oldest diabetes medication on the market and it is practically free. It is plant based, now synthetic, discovered in the 1920's and on the market since the 50's. It's been proven to work in many cases (not all) and without major complications. I know that for myself taking my medication as my doctor prescribed and not changing my diet to go along with it was not working. No doctor of mine ever gave me advice on diet. I only speak for GP's. Whether Metformin can extend life is an over simplification. Statistically maybe, but in the real world it goes way beyond just one medication.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
The point of the article that I posted is that not everyone responds in the same way to a given food. If we could predict what an individual's blood sugar would be after a meal of a given composition, no one would need to use a glucose meter. What every diabetic needs to do is monitor his blood sugar and find out what foods he personally needs to avoid.
Do you have any evidence that the sponsors dictate anything the ADA recommends? If not, positing a conspiracy is a bit dishonest, don't you think? Metformin is so cheap Publix Pharmacy gives it away.
Again, common sense. As for the conspiracy thing, I said we can only speculate. As to what foods one needs to avoid that again is common sense. Sorry to repeat myself. Diabetics cannot process glucose correctly and carbs=glucose by definition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
From your last link:
"Myth: People with diabetes can't eat sweets or chocolate.
Fact: If eaten as part of a healthy meal plan, or combined with exercise, sweets and desserts can be eaten by people with diabetes. They are no more "off limits" to people with diabetes than they are to people without diabetes. The key to sweets is to have a very small portion and save them for special occasions so you focus your meal on more healthful foods."
It's a bit dishonest to imply that the ADA does not advise any limits on sweets, don't you think?
I know it's dishonest to put words in my mouth. I never implied anything about sweets. I posted a link to a web page. My main objective in doing so was to show that the carb numbers are still out there. The 45 to 60 grams per meal is not a path to recovery or control or anything. If you are injecting a full standard dose of insulin you need to consume those carbs to prevent hypo but the general consensus is to cut back on BOTH carbs and insulin/medication. Diabetes is a progressive disease and to stay on that course of treatment is a dead end (pun intended).
Just curious, are you a diabetic?
I know there are many diabetics that could give a rat's behind about their long term health. If they don't want to modify their diet in order control it, that's their prerogative.
Your brother was on Adkins to lose weight, not to control his potentially life threatening disease. Some diabetics even after getting limbs amputated do not change their ways, so there is all kinds of people with different levels of will power. You argument is irrelevant. I still have my legs and feet and chose to control my condition with diet. Medication alone will not do it. That was my decision. The alternative was unthinkable for me. I eat tomatoes, onions, fruit and many other foods that do have carbs. I know I can eat them because of my meter. My goal is not weight loss but blood sugar control. If I chose to control with diet alone I would be a lot more strict with myself.
Then what you are doing is exactly what the ADA recommends. The ADA (and I) have never recommended counting on medication without lifestyle changes.
My brother had exactly the same problem with the Atkins diet that some diabetics have with very low carb diets. That's why his comment is relevant.
Quote:
Of course everybody is different. You have to take it upon yourself to adjust your lifestyle to your condition. NOBODY else will do it for you. This is common sense and goes without saying. My post was to contradict yours that the ADA no longer gave specific dietary advice. I showed you that they still did. Both of the links STILL mention 45 to 60 grams of carbs per meal as a general guideline. The web pages are still on the internet. You can nitpick the information to your liking but the proof is in the pudding. I also agreed with you that in general they are no longer giving out dietary advice BUT a lot of people including "experts" are still giving out the old information.
What the link you gave actually stated is the carb count with certain meal plans and a statement that includes ways to reduce the count for those who need to do so. If someone is giving outdated advice that is not the ADA's fault.
Quote:
I never said a word about Metformin or lifespan or anything of the kind. In fact Metformin is probably the oldest diabetes medication on the market and it is practically free. It is plant based, now synthetic, discovered in the 1920's and on the market since the 50's. It's been proven to work in many cases (not all) and without major complications. I know that for myself taking my medication as my doctor prescribed and not changing my diet to go along with it was not working. No doctor of mine ever gave me advice on diet. I only speak for GP's. Whether Metformin can extend life is an over simplification. Statistically maybe, but in the real world it goes way beyond just one medication.
If your doctor did not discuss lifestyle changes for diabetes you need a new doctor. Referral to a nutritionist should be standard operating procedure for every new diabetic, right along with recommendations to see an ophthalmologist for a baseline retinal exam and instruction on foot care. Most offices will delegate such counseling to a nurse. It's not a good use of scarce MD office visit time to do meal planning with you.
The comment about metformin was in response to the implication that if you choose to use medication rather than a very low carb diet you are doomed to die sooner. Evidence indicates that is not true with respect to metformin users.
Statistics do apply to groups, not individuals. That is why the ADA recommends individualizing diets.
Quote:
Again, common sense. As for the conspiracy thing, I said we can only speculate. As to what foods one needs to avoid that again is common sense. Sorry to repeat myself. Diabetics cannot process glucose correctly and carbs=glucose by definition.
Speculation without evidence is not helpful. One person may have to avoid foods that others are able to tolerate. That is why the ADA recommends individualizing diets.
Quote:
I know it's dishonest to put words in my mouth. I never implied anything about sweets. I posted a link to a web page. My main objective in doing so was to show that the carb numbers are still out there. The 45 to 60 grams per meal is not a path to recovery or control or anything. If you are injecting a full standard dose of insulin you need to consume those carbs to prevent hypo but the general consensus is to cut back on BOTH carbs and insulin/medication. Diabetes is a progressive disease and to stay on that course of treatment is a dead end (pun intended).
Just curious, are you a diabetic?
I know there are many diabetics that could give a rat's behind about their long term health. If they don't want to modify their diet in order control it, that's their prerogative.
You did indeed bring up sweets. You said, "Oh and by the way, they are still saying that it's OK to eat starchy foods and sweets." What did you mean by saying that if you did not want readers to think the ADA endorses eating unlimited amounts of sweets, when you chose not to mention that the ADA qualifies consumption of sweets by saying they should be eaten in small amounts and infrequently?
I am not diabetic but I do have relatives who are.
Doctors have to take care of noncompliant patients all the time. That is why insisting everyone go on a very low carb diet in order to avoid medication is doomed to failure. Two thirds of those who start a very low carb diet will not continue it and it's not because they do not care. It's because they want to have family meals and not be stuck eating "diabetic" food and watch others eat forbidden foods. That is why the diet must be customized for the patient and modified depending on what the actual blood sugars and HgA1c are while taking food preferences into consideration. The diabetic person does not have to give up any food. There are some foods he should eat only in small quantities, not very often, and as part of the overall food plan for the day.
Big Pharma invented diabetes and distributed it among the population about 200 years before Sharpey Shafer figured it out insulin was the key. Eli Lilly and Novo Nordisk made lots of money selling the insulin that they produced before WW2, saving lives of diabetics who usually had short lives until that invention. But finally, in 2017, the especially prescient and -impressed-with-themselves-brilliant posters among us have figured it that it was a dastardly Big Pharma plot all along. Along with all their evil organizations around the world of diabetic research institutes and doctors treating diabetic patients. Finally, the game is up on the biggest conspiracy in medical history.
Big pharma also makes potholes in your roads, are hiding the cure to hunger in a box in a vault in Alabama, and own Sweden. Only the especially intelligent who are able to disregard facts and who are expert practitioners of fundamental attribution error can see this tho.
Insulin used to be dirt cheap. Now, it seems as if every Big Pharma company is spending tens of millions to advertise on TV the latest and greatest ripoff insulin, which is probably the biggest scam since the statin scam.
And the day after Eli Lilly's patent expires on their latest and greatest insulin, they will introduce the latest and ever greater greatest insulin so they can suck out more of our healthcare dollars for another 17 years.
But who can blame them. The low-fat high carb diet that the UDSA scammed us with in the 1980's has lead to an explosion of T2 diabetes (AND YES OTHER POSTER, THE BEST WAY TO AVOID T2 IS NOT TO GET FAT AND OBESE).
And now Big Pharma funds and runs the ADA. When the ADA HEAVILY PROMOTES an "A" diet, which is the drastic reduction of carbohydrates, then I will know they are serious. But they don't and they won't. WHY NOT?
You made one mistake - Big Pharma did not make potholes in the road. I looked that one up and couldn't find anything.
It's alarming how much misinformation is out there on diabetes. I've spoken to people who teach classes to diabetics on how to cook and eat correctly. They teach people to eat a banana as a mid-meal snack, and the meals they present tend to be high-carb, but because they're non-refined carbs, whole grains and such, these "experts" believe these are balanced meals appropriate for diabetics. It's scary the info that's being disseminated to people.
Cooking classes for high-risk populations nationwide are all about using whole grains and stevia in cookie recipes, and other baked goods! Nurses providing health screenings at health and wellness fairs in high-risk communities insist that "there's no such thing as pre-diabetes. You either have it, or you don't. There's no intermediate stage."
YIKES!
I have read numerous stories about the "diabetic" menu served in hospitals. Here is a summary of the problem. It is an absolute disgrace. Imagine a place of healing giving diabetics junk meals that skyrocket blood sugar.
Then what you are doing is exactly what the ADA recommends. The ADA (and I) have never recommended counting on medication without lifestyle changes.
My brother had exactly the same problem with the Atkins diet that some diabetics have with very low carb diets. That's why his comment is relevant.
Losing weight (or not) is a much easier choice to make than controlling diabetes. Since you don't have diabetes I don't think you can relate. I feel the pain in my feet from the nerve damage I have suffered. I have been close to getting a foot amputated from foot ulcer. That choice is easy and clear in my case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
If your doctor did not discuss lifestyle changes for diabetes you need a new doctor. Referral to a nutritionist should be standard operating procedure for every new diabetic, right along with recommendations to see an ophthalmologist for a baseline retinal exam and instruction on foot care. Most offices will delegate such counseling to a nurse. It's not a good use of scarce MD office visit time to do meal planning with you.
Sure the docs are busy and I wouldn't take diet advice from a nurse. Since my diagnosis I've seen three different MD's. None even mentioned diet or referred me to anybody else. I educated myself by reading. I do research and read and read and read some more. I found the diet that helps me and I stick with it. I now have normal non diabetic numbers and normal cholesterol and lipids. My diabetes has not reversed nor will it ever do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
You did indeed bring up sweets. You said, "Oh and by the way, they are still saying that it's OK to eat starchy foods and sweets." What did you mean by saying that if you did not want readers to think the ADA endorses eating unlimited amounts of sweets, when you chose not to mention that the ADA qualifies consumption of sweets by saying they should be eaten in small amounts and infrequently?
I never mentioned the word "unlimited". If the ADA were at all responsible they would say to stay away from sweets. Nobody is going to die immediately from eating candy or a piece of cake but some people are just ignorant and don't know the difference and will think it's OK. That is why it is irresponsible. It's like telling an alcoholic with liver cirrhosis "it's ok to have a drink on your birthday or a special occasion". In general it's just not a good idea especially coming from the "authority".
Since my diagnosis I've seen three different MD's. None even mentioned diet or referred me to anybody else. I educated myself by reading. I do research and read and read and read some more. I found the diet that helps me and I stick with it.
Good for you! But your statement is so sad. For every person like you who became self-educated, there are 10 people who just took the pills and insulin prescribed by their doctors, who know less about nutrition than the average plumber (no offense to you plumbers out there).
I just find it odd that a chiropractor is giving medical advise on diabetes. Not that the advise is really bad, a bit oversimplified but probably appropriate for the audience, but he's a chiropractor not an M.D. Not exactly his field of expertise. Also seems to be a quasi-quack. X-ray tech turned chiro turned "diet doctor." That said, yeah, drinking ingesting tons of sugar is not good and is correlated strongly with developing type II diabetes. Not sure why you think the ADA is spewing out that it's not.
The human body is his field of expertise, a Chiropractor looks for natural ways to heal the body with out medicine. I like Dr Berg, I think he uses a sound approach to health.
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