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Paleo seems to be a re-named Atkins diet, which didn't survive. It's Meat-industry propaganda. They know people won't eat much fruit and therefore, gorge on meat.
Almost every book and website in favor of paleo style diets are very specific in condemning factory farmed beef that is fattened up on corn. Most suggest finding a local small farm, which i have done, and buying meats from people who let you visit their farms and see their animal treatment practices. Try doing that with farms from the meat industry and you will get nowhere.
Also, there is a wide variety of suggestions on how much meat to eat. We eat a lot more in the winter, less in the summer when lots of delicious local veggies and fruit are easy to find. I've encountered paleo dieters who dont like beef or chicken and eat it infrequently, their focus remains consistent with basic paleo principles, unprocessed foods, organic almost all of the time, and supporting small, local farms rather than big agribusiness.
Sure, there are some "paleo" dieters out there that will go to McDonald's and get a double quarter pounder with cheese, throw out the bun and call it a paleo meal. Just realize not all paleo dieters share the same goals and values.
Just FYI, I find it difficult to gorge on meat. I can eat loads of fruit easily though.
Almost every book and website in favor of paleo style diets are very specific in condemning factory farmed beef that is fattened up on corn.
Yes and they know that the vast majority don't have the means to purchase grass fed organic beef, etc....
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Originally Posted by SFit
If people ate a wide variety of fresh vegetables in large quantities, why would they need grains? I'm not trying to be dismissive either. I've been trying to get a decent answer as to why grains get all the hype as being necessary and super healthy. What is it that makes them more super healthy than eating a variety of vegetables that can easily provide all the fiber and nutrients grains do plus A LOT more.
Who claims that people need to consume grains? I'm not aware of any health organization that claims that, instead they encourage the consumption of whole grains as part of a healthy diet. Why are whole grains encouraged? Because they've been consistently linked to positive health outcomes and are, unlike vegetables, high enough in calories to contribute significantly to your calorie needs.
In terms of fiber, grains are high in soluble fiber where as most vegetables are high in insoluble fiber. There are also fiber-like substances, for example resistant starch, that can be found in whole grains.
Grains and vegetables aren't dietary replacements, it would make more sense to think of grains (and legumes) and meat as replacements for each other as they are more similar dietary wise and it is precisely this substitution that motivates the paleo diets elimination of these foods: its trying to promote meat consumption.
they'd eat our physiologically correct High-fruit primate/frugivore diet, like I do
There is no reason to believe that we are physiologically frugivores and there is no evidence of any human societies or even ancestors over the last few million years that have eaten this way.
Unlike our domesticated fruits, wild fruits aren't nearly as high in sugar and a human, with our limited digestive capacity, would find it nearly impossible to get enough calories from wild fruits.
One thing that has always amused me about the fruit-based diets is the degree to which they process their fruit, juicing, blending, smoothies, etc.....all in an effort to try to do something their digestive system isn't well designed to do....namely subsist on fruit.
Yes and they know that the vast majority don't have the means to purchase grass fed organic beef, etc....
Who claims that people need to consume grains? I'm not aware of any health organization that claims that, instead they encourage the consumption of whole grains as part of a healthy diet. Why are whole grains encouraged? Because they've been consistently linked to positive health outcomes and are, unlike vegetables, high enough in calories to contribute significantly to your calorie needs.
In terms of fiber, grains are high in soluble fiber where as most vegetables are high in insoluble fiber. There are also fiber-like substances, for example resistant starch, that can be found in whole grains.
Grains and vegetables aren't dietary replacements, it would make more sense to think of grains (and legumes) and meat as replacements for each other as they are more similar dietary wise and it is precisely this substitution that motivates the paleo diets elimination of these foods: its trying to promote meat consumption.
Most people who are buying diet books can afford grass fed beef. Its doesnt cost much more and is readily available in most large grocery stores or straight from the farmers for anyone who thinks their health, the environment, and animal care is worth a few hours of time to locate a source. Your conspiracy theory is a new one for me, havent heard that one before.
As for fiber, its easy to meet soluble fiber needs with great foods like sweet potatoes, turnips, okra, kale, apples, pears, etc. Also, with so many obese people, plenty of people will benefit from lower calorie sources of fiber and other nutrients.
Most people who are buying diet books can afford grass fed beef. Its doesnt cost much more and is readily available in most large grocery stores or straight from the farmers for anyone who thinks their health, the environment.
A diet book costs $10~$20, switching to grass fed beef, locally sourced organic meats,etc would cost considerably more than that per mouth for even average meat consumption....but it would be very expensive for a meat heavy diet like paleo.
As for "straight from the farmers", c'mon, the vast majority of people live in urbanized communities where the nearest farms are typically hours away.
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Originally Posted by SFit
As for fiber, its easy to meet soluble fiber needs with great foods like sweet potatoes, turnips, okra, kale, apples, pears, etc. Also, with so many obese people, plenty of people will benefit from lower calorie sources of fiber and other nutrients.
My point wasn't that grains have unique nutrients that can't be found in other foods, rather that grains and vegetables shouldn't be thought of as substitutes for each other. They are,on average, rather different from each other and as such one shouldn't consume whole grains at the sacrifice of vegetables and vice verse.
You can pick any of the traditional "food groups" and eliminate one and still plan a nutritionally adequate diet. But so what? Just because you can eliminate something doesn't mean you should eliminate it. What reason is there to eliminate whole grains? They are nutritious (more so than most meat people consume), a rich source of fiber, and provide a fairly ideal ratio of calories per volume (not too much, not too little) and have been consistently linked to positive health outcomes.
People aren't obese because they are eating too many whole grains, they are obese because they are consuming a diet rich in refined sugars, refined fats and fatty animal foods.
As for conspiracy theories, I find that the only way to make sense of the paleo diet is as a marketing effort by the meat industry. Like other diet fads, the paleo diet hasn't been rooted in scientific research and instead on some speculative theory used to motivate the consumption of some goods over others.
A diet book costs $10~$20, switching to grass fed beef, locally sourced organic meats,etc would cost considerably more than that per mouth for even average meat consumption....but it would be very expensive for a meat heavy diet like paleo.
As for "straight from the farmers", c'mon, the vast majority of people live in urbanized communities where the nearest farms are typically hours away.
My point wasn't that grains have unique nutrients that can't be found in other foods, rather that grains and vegetables shouldn't be thought of as substitutes for each other. They are,on average, rather different from each other and as such one shouldn't consume whole grains at the sacrifice of vegetables and vice verse.
You can pick any of the traditional "food groups" and eliminate one and still plan a nutritionally adequate diet. But so what? Just because you can eliminate something doesn't mean you should eliminate it. What reason is there to eliminate whole grains? They are nutritious (more so than most meat people consume), a rich source of fiber, and provide a fairly ideal ratio of calories per volume (not too much, not too little) and have been consistently linked to positive health outcomes.
People aren't obese because they are eating too many whole grains, they are obese because they are consuming a diet rich in refined sugars, refined fats and fatty animal foods.
As for conspiracy theories, I find that the only way to make sense of the paleo diet is as a marketing effort by the meat industry. Like other diet fads, the paleo diet hasn't been rooted in scientific research and instead on some speculative theory used to motivate the consumption of some goods over others.
So the factory farm corporations are funding books that tell people that their product is bad for animals, bad for the environment, and less tasty and healthy than small farmers raising animals humanely on their natural diet and you think its because they think people are too unprincipled, too lazy or both to bother spending a little time and the cost of a daily visit to Starbuck's to make that change. Thats either a wacky conspiracy theory or the wackiest underhanded investment attempt in history.
I live dead in the center of the Dallas/ Fort Worth metro area, right by the airport. Farmers markets bring good beef into the area on weekends, or we drive 80 miles once every 4-6 weeks and stock up. Its easy and affordable.
As for eliminating grains, again, they settle like a brick in my stomach. Cut out grains, i feel better. What more of a reason do I need to cut them out?
So the factory farm corporations are funding books that tell people that their product is bad for animals, bad for the environment, and less tasty and healthy than small farmers raising animals humanely on their natural diet and you think its because they think people are too unprincipled...
I didn't say anything about "factory farm corporations", I said that the meat industry is using the paleo-diet to promote meat consumption. The meat industry has, due to the various checkoff programs, many millions to spend each year on marketing meat products and both factory farms and grass fed operations have to pay into these checkoff programs (its mandatory).
But, as I said, the vast majority of people either don't have access to organic, grass-fed, etc meats or can't afford them so its really no skin off the factory farm folks backs that the paleo-diet plays lib-service to grass-fed, organic, meats. After all, the paleo gurus all say its better to eat grain fed beef, etc than those dreadful grains and legumes.
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Originally Posted by SFit
I live dead in the center of the Dallas/ Fort Worth metro area, right by the airport. Farmers markets bring good beef into the area on weekends, or we drive 80 miles once every 4-6 weeks and stock up. Its easy and affordable.
Driving 80 miles to stock-up on meat doesn't sound "easy" to me, after all, I can walk up the street and get everything I need. But Texas is beef country and the accessibility of grass-fed beef there isn't representative of the rest of the country, just as the availability of fresh fruits and vegetables here in California isn't representative of the entire country.
As for affordability, meat as a whole is expensive but organic and grass-fed beef is considerably more than standard beef and the same goes for other organic meats. Eating a paleo style diet is considerably more expensive than a eating pattern based on whole grains, legumes, vegetables, fruit and small (if any) amounts of meat. And this pattern of eating, unlike they paleo diet, is known to promote long-term health. Why spend more on a unproven fad diet?
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Originally Posted by SFit
As for eliminating grains, again, they settle like a brick in my stomach.
I have no idea what this would mean, but I'm talking about general dietary advice and there is no reason for the general population to eliminate whole grains.
I didn't say anything about "factory farm corporations", I said that the meat industry is using the paleo-diet to promote meat consumption. The meat industry has, due to the various checkoff programs, many millions to spend each year on marketing meat products and both factory farms and grass fed operations have to pay into these checkoff programs (its mandatory).
An industry using diet ideas to promote meat consumption. Hmmm, sounds a lot like the big corps that use "heart healthy grains" on their label to sell sugared up cereals and other junk food with the full approval of the American Heart Association. We can't trust grains anymore because of this according to your logic.
Are you surprised that people with money as their main priority would do such a thing?
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But, as I said, the vast majority of people either don't have access to organic, grass-fed, etc meats or can't afford them so its really no skin off the factory farm folks backs that the paleo-diet plays lib-service to grass-fed, organic, meats. After all, the paleo gurus all say its better to eat grain fed beef, etc than those dreadful grains and legumes.
Driving 80 miles to stock-up on meat doesn't sound "easy" to me, after all, I can walk up the street and get everything I need. But Texas is beef country and the accessibility of grass-fed beef there isn't representative of the rest of the country, just as the availability of fresh fruits and vegetables here in California isn't representative of the entire country.
The vast majority of people do have access to organic and/or grass fed beef, and the more people demand that type of meat over the corn fed factory meat, the easier it will become to find. When me and my wife changed our eating habits, the farmers market was the only place we knew to reliably find it. Now, it is available at Kroger, Tom Thumb (Safeway), Costco, and 2 other smaller grocery stores that we frequent.
We choose to drive 80 miles because we have developed a relationship with the farmer that we buy from. The farmer's market closes at the end of October, so we go see her and her husband at their farm because we like them. We can get what we need at the grocery store 2 miles away, including grass fed beef. But knowing the people who are responsible for providing your food is worth a Saturday afternoon out of our time.
It might be easy to write it off to Texas being a "beef state", but really its not hard to find good quality beef in most states. Arizona, Utah, Hawaii, and maybe some of the small congested states in the northeast would be exceptions. We've helped family members locate good grass fed beef sources when we have been there visiting and its not hard at all.
As for local availability of fresh fruits and vegetables, those are also rather easy to find in most states. Sure, there are places where people are going to struggle to find quality local foods. Should that stop everyone from making an effort?
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As for affordability, meat as a whole is expensive but organic and grass-fed beef is considerably more than standard beef and the same goes for other organic meats. Eating a paleo style diet is considerably more expensive than a eating pattern based on whole grains, legumes, vegetables, fruit and small (if any) amounts of meat. And this pattern of eating, unlike they paleo diet, is known to promote long-term health. Why spend more on a unproven fad diet?
People on a tight budget may need to avoid meat more often than not. But the price difference is rather small. If a person were to consume a pound of meat per day (which is a lot, more than I eat), the price difference for a month would be around $75-$100 depending on what types of beef they chose.
Some people can't afford any extra. Most people could cut the potato chips and sodas out of their diet and cover the difference easily.
Ok, repeating again. All of my health markers improved when I changed to a paleo style diet. My energy levels and overall feelings of well being improved. I got rid of digestive issues and most of my autoimmune disorder symptoms. My wife stopped having blood sugar issues, chronic digestive issues, and has more energy than she has had in years. We are spending a little more on food now than we were before.
So we should stop this and go back to the standard diet guidelines and include grains and legumes to save a few bucks? No thanks, my well being is worth a few extra bucks.
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I have no idea what this would mean, but I'm talking about general dietary advice and there is no reason for the general population to eliminate whole grains.
I don't think everyone should eliminate grains. People who have no issues with grains can eat them.
Your health markers, your agenda, your spin, your medical needs (or lack thereof), your nutritional needs (or lack thereof), the meat industry, farm raised grass fed corn fed whatever...
has nothing to do with anything at all. This is the diet forum, not the food forum, or the general health forum.
As a weight-loss diet, the Paleo diet is cost-intensive, and not very efficient. There are better and more efficient ways to lose weight, including eating *fewer* carbs than you currently are (however many that is), reducing the fat content of your meats, and exercising more.
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