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Old 05-01-2015, 05:38 PM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
14,651 posts, read 10,548,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost View Post
Who said I didn't believe in insulin resistance? Did you see my post above in which I described insulin resistance in detail?

If you have a specific medical condition, such as insulin resistance, then many normal food concepts do not apply to you. A more appropriate response would have been "I am insulin resistant," not "Well, you don't believe in insulin resistance, but some do."

There is, however, evidence that whole grains can help reduce insulin sensitivity: Effect of whole grains on insulin sensitivity in overweight hyperinsulinemic adults

In healthy people, carbohydrates are not a recipe for weight gain. If that were true, then there wouldn't be so many skinny Asians eating rice for every meal.
Sigh........ I really wish people would read their own links:
Quote:
Results: Fasting insulin was 10% lower during consumption of the whole-grain than during consumption of the refined-grain diet (mean difference: −15 ± 5.5 pmol/L; P = 0.03). After the whole-grain diet, the area under the 2-h insulin curve tended to be lower (−8832 pmol·min/L; 95% CI: −18720, 1062) than after the refined-grain diet. The rate of glucose infusion during the final 30 min of the clamp test was higher after the whole-grain diet (0.07 × 10−4 mmol·kg−1·min−1 per pmol/L; 95% CI: 0.003 × 10−4, 0.144 × 10−4).

Conclusion: Insulin sensitivity may be an important mechanism whereby whole-grain foods reduce the risk of type 2 diabetes and heart disease.
The research cited shows that eating WHOLE GRAINS probably reduces insulin resistance compared to eating REFINED GRAINS. This study has nothing to do with the impact on insulin sensitivity of whole grain consumption compared to reduced carbohydrate consumption.

Again, optimal diets are not one-size-fit-all. I can eat no grains - whole or refined, gluten or non-gluten. No rice, no barley, no wheat, no corn, no spelt, no millet. I can not consume a large percentage of carbohydrate dense foods. It has nothing to do with weight, it is simply that my digestive system rebels in life threatening ways if I do. Granted this is not the scope or nature of the issue with most people but it may create problems on a smaller scale, including weight gain, for more people than previously thought.
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:02 PM
 
3,293 posts, read 1,874,942 times
Reputation: 3667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
Sigh........ I really wish people would read their own links:
The research cited shows that eating WHOLE GRAINS probably reduces insulin resistance compared to eating REFINED GRAINS. This study has nothing to do with the impact on insulin sensitivity of whole grain consumption compared to reduced carbohydrate consumption.

Again, optimal diets are not one-size-fit-all. I can eat no grains - whole or refined, gluten or non-gluten. No rice, no barley, no wheat, no corn, no spelt, no millet. I can not consume a large percentage of carbohydrate dense foods. It has nothing to do with weight, it is simply that my digestive system rebels in life threatening ways if I do. Granted this is not the scope or nature of the issue with most people but it may create problems on a smaller scale, including weight gain, for more people than previously thought.
Sigh....I really wish people would read and understand posts before responding.

At no point did I claim that whole grains reduce insulin sensitivity more effectively than the reduction of carbohydrate intake.

When people talk about nutrition on the internet to other strangers, it is always with the caveat that someone may have a specific medical condition that makes generally true statements false. For example, if someone says "Yes, nuts are healthy snacks," it makes no sense for someone to respond with "But I have a severe nut allergy and will die if I eat nuts! How can you say they are healthy?" The same is true here. If someone has actual insulin resistance, then of course a diet with a lot of carbohydrate intake of any kind is bad. That does not imply, however, that carbohydrate intake is bad for most people. What often happens is some people feed their faces with sugar and refined carbohydrates for years, get very fat, and then learn they are insulin resistant. Per their doctor's order (correct orders), they reduce their carbohydrate intake. Their conclusion is then that carbohydrates are unhealthy and make people fat. That is of course not true, but drinking sodas and eating refined white flour everyday in conjunction with a 500 calorie surplus is not healthy.
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Old 05-02-2015, 01:54 AM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
14,651 posts, read 10,548,742 times
Reputation: 19787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost View Post
Sigh....I really wish people would read and understand posts before responding.

At no point did I claim that whole grains reduce insulin sensitivity more effectively than the reduction of carbohydrate intake.

When people talk about nutrition on the internet to other strangers, it is always with the caveat that someone may have a specific medical condition that makes generally true statements false. For example, if someone says "Yes, nuts are healthy snacks," it makes no sense for someone to respond with "But I have a severe nut allergy and will die if I eat nuts! How can you say they are healthy?" The same is true here. If someone has actual insulin resistance, then of course a diet with a lot of carbohydrate intake of any kind is bad. That does not imply, however, that carbohydrate intake is bad for most people. What often happens is some people feed their faces with sugar and refined carbohydrates for years, get very fat, and then learn they are insulin resistant. Per their doctor's order (correct orders), they reduce their carbohydrate intake. Their conclusion is then that carbohydrates are unhealthy and make people fat. That is of course not true, but drinking sodas and eating refined white flour everyday in conjunction with a 500 calorie surplus is not healthy.
This is a thread about low carbohydrate dieting. You brought this link up in reference to a poster who was saying carbohydrates caused issues in reference to insulin resistance, not a dispute about the type of carbohydrate. The implication by the way it was written was that consumption of whole grains increased sensitivity to insulin, not that it increased sensitivity in comparison to refined grains. Big difference. This difference matters, especially since the latest research appears to indicate that carbohydrate consumption of any kind decreases insulin sensitivity, at least in people diagnosed with diabetes or pre-diabetes.

What is not clear, based on the current research, is which comes first - whether insulin resistance causes obesity or whether obesity causes insulin resistance. Until recently the assumption, based exactly on what you said, "people feed their faces with sugar and refined carbohydrates for years, get very fat, and then learn they are insulin resistant," was that insulin resistance was the last event to occur. In the last couple of years though the research and medical communities have begun to consider that the insulin resistance may come first in that equation but it isn't found out until after having it for years. There isn't a specific test for insulin resistance, only a test for excess sugar remaining in the blood.
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Old 05-02-2015, 05:52 AM
 
11,636 posts, read 20,376,010 times
Reputation: 12159
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonChick View Post
Humans require fiber; fiber exists in the form of complex carbohydrates. Regardless of where or how humans can acquire glucose - they can't produce their own fiber. Only carbohydrates can provide that for them, by way of vegetables and fruits, legumes, and other plant sources.
No matter how you spin it carbs are not an essential nutrient.
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Old 05-02-2015, 05:57 AM
 
11,636 posts, read 20,376,010 times
Reputation: 12159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost View Post
Who said I didn't believe in insulin resistance? Did you see my post above in which I described insulin resistance in detail?

If you have a specific medical condition, such as insulin resistance, then many normal food concepts do not apply to you. A more appropriate response would have been "I am insulin resistant," not "Well, you don't believe in insulin resistance, but some do."

There is, however, evidence that whole grains can help reduce insulin sensitivity: Effect of whole grains on insulin sensitivity in overweight hyperinsulinemic adults

In healthy people, carbohydrates are not a recipe for weight gain. If that were true, then there wouldn't be so many skinny Asians eating rice for every meal.
That study proves that whole grain improves insulin sensitivity compared to other carbs. It says nothing about insulin sensitivity in people who reduce all carbs.
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Old 05-02-2015, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Wine Country
5,322 posts, read 6,394,290 times
Reputation: 9786
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
No matter how you spin it carbs are not an essential nutrient.
For me they are. I do not function well at all when I eliminate grains from my diet.
One size does not fit all with any diet, least of all low, low carb craze.
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Old 05-02-2015, 10:05 AM
 
3,293 posts, read 1,874,942 times
Reputation: 3667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
This is a thread about low carbohydrate dieting. You brought this link up in reference to a poster who was saying carbohydrates caused issues in reference to insulin resistance, not a dispute about the type of carbohydrate. The implication by the way it was written was that consumption of whole grains increased sensitivity to insulin, not that it increased sensitivity in comparison to refined grains.
My objection to the other poster, before he or she mentioned insulin resistance, was that not all carbohydrates are created equally. My link was in support of that.

Either way, your snarky "Sigh....I wish people would read the links they post" was uncalled for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
Big difference. This difference matters, especially since the latest research appears to indicate that carbohydrate consumption of any kind decreases insulin sensitivity, at least in people diagnosed with diabetes or pre-diabetes.
Of course that's a big difference. I never implied that there wasn't such a difference or that the difference was irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
What is not clear, based on the current research, is which comes first - whether insulin resistance causes obesity or whether obesity causes insulin resistance. Until recently the assumption, based exactly on what you said, "people feed their faces with sugar and refined carbohydrates for years, get very fat, and then learn they are insulin resistant," was that insulin resistance was the last event to occur. In the last couple of years though the research and medical communities have begun to consider that the insulin resistance may come first in that equation but it isn't found out until after having it for years. There isn't a specific test for insulin resistance, only a test for excess sugar remaining in the blood.
I do not know when insulin resistance normally develops in the process, but my point still stands: not all carbohydrates are created equally. Consuming large amounts of sugar and refined carbohydrates almost certainly increases one's risk of becoming insulin resistant, and the resulting belief that "Carbs are bad because they made me insulin resistant" is false if taken to mean carbohydrates generally. The consumption of whole grain, fiber-containing carbohydrates does not cause the same amount of insulin spike as refined carbohydrates do, thus the mechanism by which one's body becomes resistant to insulin in the first place doesn't have as much opportunity to present itself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
That study proves that whole grain improves insulin sensitivity compared to other carbs. It says nothing about insulin sensitivity in people who reduce all carbs.
See post #62
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Old 05-02-2015, 10:17 AM
 
11,636 posts, read 20,376,010 times
Reputation: 12159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckyd609 View Post
For me they are. I do not function well at all when I eliminate grains from my diet.
One size does not fit all with any diet, least of all low, low carb craze.
I agree that one size does not fit all for weight loss. However, when you say something is essential, it means essential to survival and carbohydrates are not essential nutrients.
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Old 05-02-2015, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Wine Country
5,322 posts, read 6,394,290 times
Reputation: 9786
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
I agree that one size does not fit all for weight loss. However, when you say something is essential, it means essential to survival and carbohydrates are not essential nutrients.
Yes, I've read the books and tried to convince myself that that was true. My body knows the truth. Sure I can survive without carbs, but I certainly will not thrive without them. A HUGE difference.
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Old 05-02-2015, 02:00 PM
 
11,636 posts, read 20,376,010 times
Reputation: 12159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckyd609 View Post
Yes, I've read the books and tried to convince myself that that was true. My body knows the truth. Sure I can survive without carbs, but I certainly will not thrive without them. A HUGE difference.
I am sure that you know what you need. I don't question that. However, when people make statements like carbs are essential for human survival or the equivalent I need to get on here and correct that bit of misinformation.
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