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Old 09-01-2010, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Arizona
214 posts, read 885,697 times
Reputation: 192

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I definitely agree and am going to get her spayed regardless...i was just more curious if it would have anything to do with her behavior. Not spaying her is not an option, believe me...I just had to find 6 homes for her 6 puppies she had when I rescued her...not going thru that again! Thank you for all of your advice.

I know most of her issues are most likely out of my control and I do need the help of a professional....financially though its a huge stretch right now...trainer's are not cheap! I'm not giving up...some way, some how I'll find a way to make it work.
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Old 09-01-2010, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Santa Barbara CA
4,707 posts, read 10,141,797 times
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I agree 100% with didee when she said " 2. Engage a behaviorist who uses non-aversive methods, make sure you have recommendations and references. DO NOT USE SOMEONE WHO USES PUNISHMENT."

Be very careful of using trainers as there are still alot of them out there that think things like the alpha roll will work Truth is it can make fear aggression issues alot worse as now the dog will have the added fear that you will freak out on her.

My Jazz has fear aggression more towards dogs but humans such as vets and groomers that are doing things to her make her fearful and she will growl and snap at them. Except for that subgroup of people she is great with people.

I first asked trainers and did not like the replies I got from them, this was 14 yrs ago and a real behaviorist was not that common so I found a vet with a PHD in behavior down in Del Mar ( San Diego) and we drove for a good 4 hrs+ to see him a couple times. He felt some of her behavior was genetic due to her cattle dog blood ( Cattle dogX border collie) so warned me we would only be able to get so far and I might have to give up some things I had planned to do with her. Her problem was even worse because she has all that herding dog blood telling her to take control so she is a fear aggresive control freak

Well it has been 14 years and I am happy to say she has never bitten a person, has snapped a few good warnings at one of the vets but that vet made the huge mistake of making eye contact with her when she first came in then sat on the floor next to her despite my telling her she does better on the exam table.

She can get along great with some dogs and other dogs she wants nothing to do with and will go at them if they come too close . She has gotten into a few fights that way but has never injured another dog as she has a very inhibited bite. She has done agility, walked in the big dog parade with a thousand + dogs every year, played a little flyball with dogs I could trust her with and just for fun, run at the beach and even belonged to a play group at a park that allows off leash dogs. She was socialized as a puppy and went to day care as a puppy when I noticed she was afraid of the other dogs and did fine there as long as everyone played by her rules.So her issues are not from not being socialized. For a dog with these issues she has done alot but I have always had to keep a close eye on her and know her early warning signs that she is about to explode in an aggressive fashion. it has beeen alot of work but she really is a fantastic dog that has enriched my life these past 14 yrs and I feel I owe that to the help of the behaviorist and was glad I did not listen to any of the dog trainers who gave me advice. As for growling he told me not to put an end to it as it is a warning but instead when she issues a growl to take her out of the situation less she becomes a dog that does not offer that warning and attacks with no warning.

You may see improvement in the dog but if it is genetic based she will never be 100% and any future owner will need to be some one that can deal with such issues. Good luck! And thanks for helping a dog like her.
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Old 09-15-2010, 05:56 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
6 posts, read 8,336 times
Reputation: 14
Default Fearful dogs...What NOT to do!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LookinForMayberry View Post
Whether spaying her will help is mute, spay her anyway. That's a given.

As for her socialization, take her on lots of walks around people. When she starts demonstrating fear:

Hold her lead close to her neck, to maintain control.
Try to get her to sit if she will, but regardless, continue these steps:
Stop and crouch low to be next to her; face the fear with her by her side.
Speaking in soothing tones, tell her "It's okay, it only _____. Nothing to fear."
Repeat this every time she growls, or tries to break free.
Stay silent when she's quiet.
Continue until she can sit quietly and watch the action with you.
Reward her with her favorite treat and lots of praise.

Stand and walk further.
Try to repeat this at least two or three times during a walk, and then go home.
Let her have quiet time with a favorite toy afterward.

Try to do this more frequently over time.
This is the worse thing you can do with a fearful dog. What are your qualifications to tell this person what to do? Again, we are trying to help but if you don't know what YOU are doing, do not pass along "bad" advice.
That is what gets people frustrated. It's like Petsmart kicking dogs out of the class for "bad behavior". What happens to the dog????
Here's Why:
1. Dog's will only follow stable leaders. A leader's job is to protect and provide. The 2 P's.
2. Why does your dog need to SIT when in a fearful, dominant or aggressive state of mind? If you took your child into a cave and the child was scared to death, would making the child sit, change his fear? If you were angry and you sat down, would you still be angry?
3. The dog is in a fearful state of mind and YOU are telling the dog that it is OK? What are you actually rewarding? Dogs do not understand "It's OK". It's a DOG!
4. You are only rewarding a fearful state of mind. So if you give her a treat, while crouched in the middle of the street, you are teaching her to be fearful. Look at YOUR actions while dealing with the dog? The dog is looking to you for guidance and leadership and your are in the middle of the road crouched down saying it's ok...
5. Every time she growls, tell her it's OK??? Really!?

YOU need to become the dog's leader. Provide and Protect. Walk, Rest, Feed, set some Rules and feed your dog the best food possible. Avoid obedience and treats for awhile and follow The Four Essentials to a Stable Dog (c).

One walk with YOU as the leader, will change your dog immediately. When you walk your dog, DO NOT LOOK at the dog. Imagine walking with a GUCCI bag, going to a shoe sale! Think about the shoes, not the bag. Practice being the leader at home, then in the yard, then in the "wild". Moderator cut: send a DM

Last edited by Keeper; 09-15-2010 at 06:09 AM.. Reason: advertising
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:24 AM
 
13,773 posts, read 33,851,698 times
Reputation: 10557
As a reminder we are all here to help. What works for one may not work for another. Just look at all the different opinions on TV on how to train a dog

All of the good folks here are offering their opinion on what will help with an issue. It may or may not since so much depends on YOU the dog owner.

Consider all the information given and see what works for you and your dog.
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:27 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
6 posts, read 8,336 times
Reputation: 14
Default Dog Trainers

Quote:
Originally Posted by dashdog View Post
i agree 100% with didee when she said " 2. Engage a behaviorist who uses non-aversive methods, make sure you have recommendations and references. Do not use someone who uses punishment." what is punishment? What is discipline? What is exercise?

my comments in red and capitalized for clarity not screaming
be very careful of using trainers as there are still alot of them out there that think things like the alpha roll will work Truth is it can make fear aggression issues alot worse as now the dog will have the added fear that you will freak out on her. why do two dogs fight? Does one eventially win? When does the pack leader not correct his pack because it might "add more fear"? I agree the "alpha roll" should not be used by dog owners. They see it on tv and try it themselves and they get bitten. The "alpha" roll is nothing more than making the dog submit. Dog's can fight, flight, avoid or submit. There can only be one leader. In more than 17 years of 'whispering', i have 'rolled' hundreds of dogs. The one and only reason i did is because the dog bit. The correction for a biting dog is submission. A pack leader always wins. Rolling a dog if done properly and for the right reason, works on every dog if you understand canine behavior and do it properly. Most people who give advice or "bad mouth" others' technique without understanding the whys are just spreading bad advice. Dogs live in the moment. After the correction, the dog has moved on. The human hasn't.

my jazz has fear aggression more towards dogs but humans such as vets and groomers that are doing things to her make her fearful and she will growl and snap at them. Except for that subgroup of people she is great with people.

I first asked trainers and did not like the replies i got from them, this was 14 yrs ago and a real behaviorist was not that common so i found a vet with a phd in behavior down in del mar ( san diego) and we drove for a good 4 hrs+ to see him a couple times. He felt some of her behavior was genetic due to her cattle dog blood ( cattle dogx border collie) so warned me we would only be able to get so far and i might have to give up some things i had planned to do with her. Her problem was even worse because she has all that herding dog blood telling her to take control so she is a fear aggresive control freak genetics has nothing to do with aggression. She is a hearding dog. Before she was a herding dog, she was just a dog. Man made the breed from a canis lupus. Don't look at the breed, look at the dog. Put a backpack on her and walk her. any herding dog that i see is due to fear/aggression. Once given what she needs, the dog is great.

well it has been 14 years and i am happy to say she has never bitten a person, has snapped a few good warnings at one of the vets but that vet made the huge mistake of making eye contact with her when she first came in then sat on the floor next to her despite my telling her she does better on the exam table. So snapping is ok?

She can get along great with some dogs and other dogs she wants nothing to do with and will go at them if they come too close . so what have you accomplished in 14 years? she has gotten into a few fights that way but has never injured another dog as she has a very inhibited bite. She has done agility, walked in the big dog parade with a thousand + dogs every year, played a little flyball with dogs i could trust her with and just for fun, run at the beach and even belonged to a play group at a park that allows off leash dogs. she can do all this but she is still fear aggressive. So what has changed. she was socialized as a puppy and went to day care as a puppy when i noticed she was afraid of the other dogs and did fine there as long as everyone played by her rules. she was the owner of the facility? She made up the rules? Really! so her issues are not from not being socialized. For a dog with these issues she has done alot but i have always had to keep a close eye on her and know her early warning signs that she is about to explode in an aggressive fashion. these issues are from not knowing how to correct the behavior when it occured. it is a learned behavior from puppy hood when dogs go through their 3 fear impact periods. it has beeen alot of work but she really is a fantastic dog that has enriched my life these past 14 yrs and i feel i owe that to the help of the behaviorist and was glad i did not listen to any of the dog trainers who gave me advice. if we can't change the human, we can't change the dog. as for growling he told me not to put an end to it as it is a warning but instead when she issues a growl to take her out of the situation less she becomes a dog that does not offer that warning and attacks with no warning. a vet told you not to put an end to the growling? Growling is dominance which leads to aggression. Would you put a end to your child kicking people? By taking a dog out of a situation, you are not teaching the dog anything. That is like people putting their dog outside when guests come over to the house. The dog, like children, need rules. Not obedience.

you may see improvement in the dog but if it is genetic based she will never be 100% and any future owner will need to be some one that can deal with such issues. Good luck! And thanks for helping a dog like her.
this is not genetics. It is canine behavior. Change what you are doing, and the dog will change.
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Old 09-15-2010, 10:13 AM
 
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
9,352 posts, read 16,790,466 times
Reputation: 11458
i personally have never felt the need to force my dogs to submit to me .... and there is no doubt AT ALL in any of our minds who our "pack leader' is ....

and i'll tell ya' what .... if either of mine growls at someone or something, you better believe i pay attention.... and take appropriate action, which often means removing him or her from the situation that is making him or her feel threatened...... would much rather have a dog that gives a warning growl than one who has been punished for doing so, so that it no longer does that and resorts to just attacking with no warning......
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Old 09-15-2010, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Santa Barbara CA
4,707 posts, read 10,141,797 times
Reputation: 8530
America's Dog Whisperer. I am not going to argue with you as you are welcome to your opinion too but I did get help from an vet with a PHD in animal behavior so I will stand by him. I also believe that dogs are NOT wolves and that people really miss use the Alpha word and the dogs are wolves thing.

As far as the alpha roll the vet with the PHD said that when Jazz is frightened she sees me as her saftey and if I would have grabbed her and done an alpha roll that in the future as we are walking she would see another dog and get anxious but then also be thinking if I react to frighten it away ( which is why she does the aggression thing) then this crazy woman may attack me thus the stress would be even more so. She was attacked as we were walking when she was a puppy and I got her over that then she got attacked by another dog at agility and after that she started to display aggression if a dog she does not know approaches her as usually they back off and then she is fine. As the vet said it is the old attack first and hopefully frighten the other dog away rather then wait to be attacked.

If I could have a dime for every person that told me Jazz was an " alpha" dog I would be stinking rich! When there is a true alpha dog around she is licking that dogs muzzle to the point of being annoying and she tends to leave every other dog alone. She is a controlling dog but unlike an alpha she will use aggression to get control.


I think alot of the early research done on wolves is now being proved not to be so true as pack life is not as clear cut as they use to believe.

As to what has changed well I can do alot with her that most people can not do with a dog like her as I can read her body language and see when she is starting to get stressed thus take her out of the situation before it blows up into something. Alot of people with dogs like her either put them down , dump them at the shelter or dump them in the yard and they have no life. Jazz was been out with me everywhere and most of the time she is well behaved and does great but when others let their off leash dogs come up into her face she will react in an aggressive way but I then take control and remove her from the situation. The fights (which we are only talking maybe 2 or 3 over 14 years) she has gotten into have been when she too was off leash and fetching a ball and the other dog runs to her or when she has been off leash doing agility and another dog comes onto the course. Often when I see her starting towards another dog I can call her off so there is no fight. We agility it at a park that also has off leash dogs and despite the signs saying dogs must be on leash when in the agility area so they do not interfere we get dogs that run onto the course. For a dog with these issues she has had a great 14 years and has no bites or injuries to dogs or humans.

But as I say you are welcome to your view as am I to mine and there does seem to be a big dividing line in the dog training world between the two views and I think it will always be that way but it does not make you any more correct .

Last edited by Dashdog; 09-15-2010 at 12:24 PM..
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Old 09-17-2010, 05:28 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
6 posts, read 8,336 times
Reputation: 14
Default Sorry Keeper, This woman needs help NOW

There's Hope! The Four Essentials to a Stable Dog (c) works on EVERY dog. If someone is passing along the wrong advice, I have to say something about it. This is why dog owners are at "their wits end". They hear something different from everyone they talk to, and most of these people are not canine behavior experts. I have been "whispering" for 17 years. These techniques work on every dog. Would you ask your neighbor advice for a medical problem? High blood pressure, diabetes, brain tumor? Or would you ask a specialist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keeper View Post
As a reminder we are all here to help. What works for one may not work for another. Just look at all the different opinions on TV on how to train a dog. It's entertainment. It doesn't make you a trainer nor does it help you fix your dog's issues. It's like watching Criss Angel, Mindfreak....after watching him, it doesn't make me a magician.

All of the good folks here are offering their opinion on what will help with an issue. It may or may not since so much depends on YOU the dog owner.

Consider all the information given and see what works for you and your dog.
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Old 09-17-2010, 05:51 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
6 posts, read 8,336 times
Reputation: 14
Default Some people just won't "get it"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dashdog View Post
america's dog whisperer. I am not going to argue with you as you are welcome to your opinion too but i did get help from an vet with a phd in animal behavior so i will stand by him. I also believe that dogs are not wolves and that people really miss use the alpha word and the dogs are wolves thing. Nobody is arguing. I am educating people. Just because your vet has a phd, doesn't mean he does what we do. Most vets prescribe prozac for the dog! That is like sedating a child who has adhd. It doesn't get rid of the disease. You are right, dogs are not wolves, but dogs are from the species canis lupus. Canis lupus familiaris..domesticated dog. Dogs are pack animals, carnivore/omnivore. They need a pack leader who will protect and provide, they walk to look for food, following the leader, and the pack has rules which the leader sets. The pack leader corrects the pack with growls and bites, and sometimes he has to put down (on his back) one of his pack members.

As far as the alpha roll the vet with the phd said that when jazz is frightened she sees me as her saftey because you tell her it's ok
and if i would have grabbed her and done an alpha roll you are not qualified to do the roll that in the future as we are walking she would see another dog and get anxious but then also be thinking if i react to frighten it away ( which is why she does the aggression thing) then this crazy woman may attack me thus the stress would be even more so. What? Dogs live in the moment. They are conditioned to do the behaviors they do, because you do not know how to correct it properly.
what did your vet do to fix your dog's 14 years of aggression?
she was attacked as we were walking when she was a puppy and i got her over that then she got attacked by another dog at agility you did not do the right thing to show her that you are her leader and after that she started to display aggression if a dog she does not know approaches her as usually they back off and then she is fine. As the vet said it is the old attack first and hopefully frighten the other dog away rather then wait to be attacked. Dogs do not remember the past. They have just never left the past. The human has to get over the past before the dog can.

If i could have a dime for every person that told me jazz was an " alpha" dog i would be stinking rich! When there is a true alpha dog around she is licking that dogs muzzle to the point of being annoying and she tends to leave every other dog alone. She is a controlling dog but unlike an alpha she will use aggression to get control. When there is a true alpha dog around she submits. Duh! If you were the "alpha" or pack leader, then she wouldn't have to do the job. When the new dog comes around, she feels safe that there is someone else there to do the job as the leader. You are her mommy not her leader.


I think alot of the early research done on wolves is now being proved not to be so true as pack life is not as clear cut as they use to believe.

As to what has changed well i can do alot with her that most people can not do with a dog like her as i can read her body language and see when she is starting to get stressed thus take her out of the situation before it blows up into something. Removing her from the situation, does not fix the issue.
Alot of people with dogs like her either put them down , dump them at the shelter or dump them in the yard and they have no life. Jazz was been out with me everywhere and most of the time she is well behaved and does great but when others let their off leash dogs come up into her face she will react in an aggressive way but i then take control and remove her from the situation. The fights (which we are only talking maybe 2 or 3 over 14 years) she has gotten into have been when she too was off leash and fetching a ball and the other dog runs to her or when she has been off leash doing agility and another dog comes onto the course. Often when i see her starting towards another dog i can call her off so there is no fight. We agility it at a park that also has off leash dogs and despite the signs saying dogs must be on leash when in the agility area so they do not interfere we get dogs that run onto the course. For a dog with these issues she has had a great 14 years and has no bites or injuries to dogs or humans.

But as i say you are welcome to your view as am i to mine and there does seem to be a big dividing line in the dog training world between the two views and i think it will always be that way but it does not make you any more correct .
if their method works, then do it. Sounds like you still have the same problem even after 14 years. It is still the same dog. If you change what you are doing, the dog will change.
Thank you for you comments. I am just here to help as are you. Thank you for saving another dog.
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Old 09-18-2010, 12:58 AM
 
Location: Santa Barbara CA
4,707 posts, read 10,141,797 times
Reputation: 8530
Quote:
Originally Posted by America's Dog Whisperer View Post
if their method works, then do it. Sounds like you still have the same problem even after 14 years. It is still the same dog. If you change what you are doing, the dog will change.
Thank you for you comments. I am just here to help as are you. Thank you for saving another dog.

The biggest reason I have the same problem 14 yrs later is due to other people despite leash laws feeling it is Ok to walk their dogs without a leash and their dogs not having a good recall so that when I would ask them to call their dog they always would ignore the owner and come get right in her face. We were working on desensitizing and reconditioning her but anytime a dog got in her face I had to start over from the beginning as she was not at the point where she could handle that. I really had a difficult time finding any place that this did not occur. Despite it no I do not have as bad of a problem as I can get her to leave it unless the other dog is right in her face. Without his help things like agility and the dog parade would have been impossible so for years she has enjoyed these things and behaved herslf as he did teach me what to look for and how to get her to focus on me when around the other dogs. So while you might feel nothing has changed it has but yes she still has issues because so many people feel the leash laws do not apply to them and she will never accept a strange dog shoving it's nose right into her face.As I said at 14 she has no incidents that have caused any harm as she has never been aggessive to cause harm but rather to make the other dog back away. She is a very sensitive dog and the mere words " bad dog" make her cringe and suck up to who ever said it and she tends to give people one chance and if they blow it she will then avoid them so I have had to tread on thin ice so she trusts me and I don't loose that trust.

Now if you have any advice on how to make a sighthound focus on agility I am all ears!
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