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Old 07-29-2011, 01:29 AM
 
Location: Putnam County, NY
550 posts, read 1,780,688 times
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The trainer may be moving on to other things; getting/back to it later....but it seems he's not addressing the food aggression issue right now. And it is pretty vicious. I argue that the training must not end until the food aggression is solved. Thoughts?
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Old 07-29-2011, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
8,309 posts, read 34,303,061 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes927 View Post
The trainer may be moving on to other things; getting/back to it later....but it seems he's not addressing the food aggression issue right now. And it is pretty vicious. I argue that the training must not end until the food aggression is solved. Thoughts?
Have you spoken to the trainer about this? If you have a concern about the way the trainer is going about his job, I think it would be a very good idea to get him to explain himself. If you want to learn the "why", he should be more than happy to teach you.

My first thought is that things like food aggression, over-hard biting, willfully disobedient elimination in the house and general unruliness can be the most visible symptoms of a bigger personality problem stemming from a lack of rules and a lack of structure.

It's kind of strange how it works, but I've seen more than one dog have a multitude of behavior defects corrected by going through boot camp and learning what it's like to have consequences for failure to behave according to a certain standard.

Once someone teaches him that he is expected to be a good citizen and not being a good citizen carries consequences more severe than no hotdog for an hour or not receiving the attention of people he doesn't respect anyway, Max may connect a lot of dots at once.

You may be surprised.

Another thought is that collar conditioning is a long process and it has to start with the basics of SIT, HEEL & HERE. First, the dog has to understand what the commands mean, then the dog has to learn that there are consequences for disobeying a known command and that the consequences come from the person issuing the command, then the dog has to learn how the collar works and that a stim from the collar actually comes from the person issuing commands. Once that groundwork is laid, you can get into more complex training using the same progression of teaching the dog a task until he understands it and then introducing consequences. Once that groundwork is laid, however, you may find that many of the undesirable personality quirks have dried up.

Please, don't forget that Max is going to test you when he gets home and if he's a determined animal he's going to test you hard. That's when it's your time to shine.

Last edited by jimboburnsy; 07-29-2011 at 09:54 PM..
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Old 07-29-2011, 09:59 PM
 
Location: Putnam County, NY
550 posts, read 1,780,688 times
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Thanks, Jim. Very informative. I will post updates.
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Old 08-01-2011, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Colorado
1,893 posts, read 3,513,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimboburnsy View Post
Have you spoken to the trainer about this? If you have a concern about the way the trainer is going about his job, I think it would be a very good idea to get him to explain himself. If you want to learn the "why", he should be more than happy to teach you.

My first thought is that things like food aggression, over-hard biting, willfully disobedient elimination in the house and general unruliness can be the most visible symptoms of a bigger personality problem stemming from a lack of rules and a lack of structure.It's kind of strange how it works, but I've seen more than one dog have a multitude of behavior defects corrected by going through boot camp and learning what it's like to have consequences for failure to behave according to a certain standard.

Once someone teaches him that he is expected to be a good citizen and not being a good citizen carries consequences more severe than no hotdog for an hour or not receiving the attention of people he doesn't respect anyway, Max may connect a lot of dots at once.

You may be surprised.

Another thought is that collar conditioning is a long process and it has to start with the basics of SIT, HEEL & HERE. First, the dog has to understand what the commands mean, then the dog has to learn that there are consequences for disobeying a known command and that the consequences come from the person issuing the command, then the dog has to learn how the collar works and that a stim from the collar actually comes from the person issuing commands. Once that groundwork is laid, you can get into more complex training using the same progression of teaching the dog a task until he understands it and then introducing consequences. Once that groundwork is laid, however, you may find that many of the undesirable personality quirks have dried up.

Please, don't forget that Max is going to test you when he gets home and if he's a determined animal he's going to test you hard. That's when it's your time to shine.
Excellent explanation, Jim.
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Old 08-08-2011, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Putnam County, NY
550 posts, read 1,780,688 times
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I am dogsitting Max for 3 days. Do you think hand-feeding him all his meals (kibble) will help to get rid of the food aggression?
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Old 08-08-2011, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Cody, WY
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It could help. But just give it to him. Don't tell him to sit or back off. This will help him get over his fear.
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Old 08-09-2011, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
8,309 posts, read 34,303,061 times
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Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming View Post
It could help. But just give it to him. Don't tell him to sit or back off. This will help him get over his fear.
I like that.
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:41 AM
 
22,769 posts, read 26,135,447 times
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Originally Posted by Wes927 View Post
Thanks for the input, everyone. My family didn't do enough research and shouldn't have gotten a dog at a pet shop. But, still, why are labs promoted as the "perfect family dog" and why are working dogs bred to be in suburban homes.
Every piece of input I've ever received says that labs are a nightmare: wild, etc. Still don't get why they are America's popular dog. Maybe I could see it if they were sweet all the time, but they are not that either....
well, where i'm from suburban homes sit on a half acre of land, and in general there is just a good bit of space. that may not be the case for everyone, for example if you live near a big city.

i have a 4 month old lab and he is great. he chews his bone and his toys and that's about it. i don't give him opportunities to learn how to do very many bad things. I'm sure he'll get crazier in the near future, before he starts getting calmer, but so far so good. He's a sweet puppy with a good personality.

you said you might have ended up with a dominant male -- i picked the runt of the litter. it was cool outside and rainy, he was sitting by himself in the grass whimpering while his brothers and sisters were jumping all over one another.
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Old 08-11-2011, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Putnam County, NY
550 posts, read 1,780,688 times
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Thanks again, everybody. A few updates on the year-long Max saga, in case anyone wants to comment on anything. if anyone has any help, criticisms or random comments on any point it would be greatly appreciated....

1. I am feeding him all of his meals: I sit where his bowl usually is, feed him the kibble piece by piece. I don't make him sit or do anything as OP suggested, but I don't let him stick his head in the bowl and take some out himself (this is very hard sometimes; I don't let him do it mostly out of fear). It makes me realize how severe his food agression is. If I brush against him as I'm feeding him, or if one drops on the floor, he growls. He can be a very nasty dog.

2. He seems to understand that this is a "power play" and he fights it every chance he gets. For instance, after dinner we go outisde to play fetch, and he refuses to bring the ball directly to me. (He always has previously). Of course, I don't give in to this (I make him bring the ball to me). But he fights it every time.

3. Likewise, even with the e-collar, he fights discipline sometimes . He does "place" pretty well: but not all the time.

4. Before I had the chance to dogsit, Max's owners had to leave him in doggy boarding for 2 days. When they brought him home, he growled at each member of the primary family (not me) for 3 days each time they approached him. It was horrible. Again, the nastiness.

I haven't had to use the e-collar much as I watch him, but my sister tells me when the family and kids are aorund it will be necessary again. And, of course, I don't push Max, as I'm not totally comfortable around him.

5. Max was altered at 11 months old. Was that too late? (In regards to the aggression)

Thanks everybody!
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
8,309 posts, read 34,303,061 times
Reputation: 7073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes927 View Post
Thanks again, everybody. A few updates on the year-long Max saga, in case anyone wants to comment on anything. if anyone has any help, criticisms or random comments on any point it would be greatly appreciated....

1. I am feeding him all of his meals: I sit where his bowl usually is, feed him the kibble piece by piece. I don't make him sit or do anything as OP suggested, but I don't let him stick his head in the bowl and take some out himself (this is very hard sometimes; I don't let him do it mostly out of fear). It makes me realize how severe his food agression is. If I brush against him as I'm feeding him, or if one drops on the floor, he growls. He can be a very nasty dog.

2. He seems to understand that this is a "power play" and he fights it every chance he gets. For instance, after dinner we go outisde to play fetch, and he refuses to bring the ball directly to me. (He always has previously). Of course, I don't give in to this (I make him bring the ball to me). But he fights it every time.

3. Likewise, even with the e-collar, he fights discipline sometimes . He does "place" pretty well: but not all the time.

4. Before I had the chance to dogsit, Max's owners had to leave him in doggy boarding for 2 days. When they brought him home, he growled at each member of the primary family (not me) for 3 days each time they approached him. It was horrible. Again, the nastiness.

I haven't had to use the e-collar much as I watch him, but my sister tells me when the family and kids are aorund it will be necessary again. And, of course, I don't push Max, as I'm not totally comfortable around him.

5. Max was altered at 11 months old. Was that too late? (In regards to the aggression)

Thanks everybody!
What's the trainer's input? Does he "buck" like that with the trainer or is it only when he's home?

Is training over? Did the trainer teach you how to use the collar?

I don't want to discourage you at all, but if you're intimidated by your dog then you're definitely not in control and you're going to have a very, very difficult and stressful time with him. I don't really know what you can do if you can't confidently "own" the space that you two share. You can't fool a dog about your intentions or your level of comfort; if Max is scary to you, he knows it. Unless you can do something about that you are going to have a very tough row to hoe.

EDIT: If you're legitimately worried that Max is going to injure someone (God forbid a child) - you need to take careful inventory.
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